Chicagoist: The World Is Not Flat

EL Rider

Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:05:13 -0600

As an el rider for 30 years I must say that this is about the goofiest CTA idea that I have yet to hear; and that takes a lot as I ride the EL 5 days a week. Even at $3.50 per ride the EL is a deal, even when it is bogged down. My car payments (1 car) is about $400/month, my insurance (3 cars) is about $2400/year, gas has been up to $4.00/gallon. You people need serious help if you think that the rest of us are willing to pay for your pathetic lives. Try a bike.

ross

Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:52:12 -0600

I never said only low income people us the CTA first and second the only thing guaranteed in life is death and taxes. Bottom Line is free just won't work. They can't make it work now let alone if it was free.

navin

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:09:49 -0600

Re: Streetcars Wikipedia up 'great american streetcar scandal' The Great American Streetcar Scandal, also known as the General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum forming National City Lines (NCL) holding company, which acquired most streetcar systems throughout the United States, dismantled them, and replaced them with buses in the early 20th Century. The scandal alleges that NCL's companies had an ulterior motive to forcibly gain mass use of the automobile among the U.S. population by buying up mass light rail transportation and dismantling it. 50 some years ago there was a Humboldt Park Branch of the train that split off from the blue line at Damen and went along North Ave. and on out West. Wish that was still here I could take the train to work.

Amy

Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:07:52 -0600

ok. So since when did only "low income" people use the CTA to get to work? Ross, do you actually even live in Chicago? Have you ever looked around on the CTA during rush hour commutes? All tax brackets are represented. I know people that make $100K+ and they take the CTA right along with me and my $25K ass because parking is a major pain in the butt, and really, why do you need your car downtown when all you're going to do is sit in your cubicle for 8 hours? Anyway. We should all remember that once upon a time Chicago had an amazing street-car system, but then big car companies hired some lobbyists, and now where are our street-cars? They are in Canada. Thanks Ford. Thanks GM. Thanks Chicago's super citizen-concerned government.

Tony C

Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:06:40 -0600

I love ideas like this, personally. Vise: You're right--it would likely be instantly lumped in as socialist and "why should we pay for other people to use transit?" Of course, the answer to this is "We all pay in one way or another." Inadequate transit system? Congestion goes up, which means more wasted fuel (drivers get taxed), lost time (businesses lose productivity), goods cost more to ship (businesses get taxed, and return that added cost to the consumer in higher prices for goods), city loses business, jobs, etc. It's really such an important service everyone is affected. Etc. I really don't care what it takes--I just want to see better transit. And I do love that people are thinking about it to the extent that everyone's entertaining all these interesting ideas on how to get it all funded right.

jocelyn

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 22:43:08 -0600

i've got to say ... i was watching "cash cab" the other day (ben bailey ... growwwl), and one of the red light challenges was name 5 of the top 7 busiest (?) rail systems in the world. they were mexico city, tokyo, new york, moscow, paris, seoul, and london. the dude barely got it in time and i was screaming "say chicago!" in my head. turns out we weren't even on the list. oops. in fact, i just looked it up, and we aren't even on the top 20. blah. new york is the only US city.

radmonkey

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:43:06 -0600

Where is this alleged great health care for mexican or migrants. Also, I guess they don't pay sales tax or property taxes either. Sounds like a deal to me...I pay taxes and have a green card yet I'm missing out on this sweet deal. Why did no one tell me and here I was, working and paying taxes like a chump? Sign me up, post haste. I'll have to give up my permanent residentship but that seems like a small price to pay for free "great healthcare". :P Anyway, I'm currently in Mexico City and it's sad but the city's infrastructure is a mess...except its public transportation. It's a mirror image of Chicago and it's about the same size with 5 times the people. I guess thats what happens when you have a system that doesn't run on top of the line 19th-century technology. It's a bit of a joke when a city with a reputation even higher levels of incompetence and graft (let alone poverty and crime) is running circles around the CTA.

Sam

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:55:37 -0600

In regards to people wondering why decreased fares would increase ridership levels, us civil engineers have a formula for predicting such things. I learned it last year for my transportation engineering class. There is a balance that is hope be achieved, between fare affordability and service levels. If the fare increases, but service levels stay the same, ridership will decrease, and vice versa. If ridership increases, but capacity (i.e. number of busses) remains the same, the overall service level will go down. The CTA has in the last few years installed APCs - Automatic Passenger Counts to most bus lines, in order to supposedly analyze the passenger entrance/exit data to optimize the bus allocations. How much it cost to install these APCs, and how much the service level has increased because of them, I don't know. BTW - you can see them by the doors, they're little boxes with what look like breathing holes in them. As far as a free CTA, it's an interesting thing to think about, but I don't think it will ever happen. A lot of people who live in the city are still very suburban in their thinking about transportation -- they love their cars too much to pay for free bus rides for us losers.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:41:39 -0600

They need to come up with a new business model. That includes cuts, investments in technology line upgrades not expansion and government funding. But I think the reason Springfield isn't moving on funding because they are always crying wolf. Krusei made it such a joke and first thing this new guy does is come out and give us the doomsday scenioro not here's what we are going to do and here's what we need from you.

Julene

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:25:49 -0600

Nice try, Ross.

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:25:08 -0600

Ross: From what I understand, having supervisors in the streets, rather than an office, improves the efficiency. I am not an expert. Perhaps Tony C can weigh in. And instead of passing judgement, perhaps you should wait until you find out the answer. You have a phone. You have email. Do some reporting.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:23:06 -0600

Sparky I am not saying anyting unless you are really hot!

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:20:45 -0600

Who ever this Julene is I have no idea who you are and what condo and who the hell is Dave. I don't shop at Nordstroms by the way I am Macy's all the way. I don't think there was a chance of an emergency at the Fullerton stop. And I can drive and I drove today did you want me to pick you up on the way home who ever you are. I hope you live in Indiana because that is the way I am going this weekend.

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:16:31 -0600

So, Ross, if you aren't rich, and a million dollars isn't rich these days, are you saying you are a millionaire?

Anna Z

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:16:21 -0600

Socialized transportation. It'll never happen.

Julene

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:14:21 -0600

Ross - Okay, I concede on the shoes since Dave says that you spend WAY too much on your shoes at Nordstrom's. Here will be my argument for when you get back to your condo tonight - the people who are standing around telling people how to board the train are actually providing more than that service and that you would be the first person to complain when there was an emergency and not enough personnel around. Especially since you can't drive and have no other choice except public transit and cabs.

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:13:34 -0600

Thanks, Empathy for pointing that out. The thing that amazes me so much is the statistic for vets. These are people that fought for our country (many are Vietnam Vets, who were drafted). And what did this country do for them for their contribution? Not much. Their healthcare is lacking, not because of the doctors or nurses that work at the institutions, but because of the shitty facilities and the system. The don't get the financial support when they return, they are poor, or live marginally, and many cannot hold a job because of PTSD and other mental issues. And we are going to have another wave of veterans like this due to the Iraq war.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:08:56 -0600

Vise77: I am not rich why does everyone have to be rich and rich is relative. A million dollars isn't rich anymore. I know many teachers who retired from teaching and have plenty of money to enjoy life. Same with COPS they get one hell of state pension. Also most Cops end up in the private sector or owning their own business or in higher branch of law enforcement if they want to or are corrupt and taking payoffs. Vise do you have a $$ number you think everyone should make. People aren't expected to work at McDonalds or Wal Mart their whole life in the entry level positioins. Starting pay for a cop in Chicago is 45K and usually they are young and single. And that doesn't take into account over time and working special events. One person can get bye on that in chicago.

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:07:26 -0600

I can't argue with you because it's impossible to argue with people that lack common sense and rational thought. Sure, I am left of center, but I am not one of those ultra liberal, tree-hugging, kill three people to save 2 bunnies PETA types. Hardly. I have voted republican in local elections more than once. Yes, it's stupid that the CTA has people on the platforms standing around. But what does that have to do with the other shit you spew? And what kind of things are you doing to provide solutions, besides this anonymous bullshit spewing?

empathy is cool

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:05:51 -0600

I know this is off-topic, but I'd like to point out that up to 40% of homeless people are mentally ill, and one-third are veterans (of course, there is some overlap to these statistics). "Lazy, useless, losers" is a broad generalization that not only shows a lack of compassion, but also information. These statistics are available on both the Veteran's Administration website, and the California Psychiatric Association's Campaign for Mental Healthcare site.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:56:12 -0600

to Sparky: Because you can't argue with me. It's true you are all far left wing nuts that are the problem with democratic party. Two types of people in this county far left want everything free and far right that want to control everything and only support the rich. That's the problem with the CTA the far left and the far right. The CTA would be fine if they would do some cut backs on workers. Why the hell do they need a person at the Fulterton stop telling people how to board the train? I say put that person on bus to drive and do something or lay them off. Also why do we need these CTA workers at bus stops with clip boards they still can't get the busses to run right. Has the CTA heard of GPS and a central dispatch?

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:54:59 -0600

Ross: Do you know many cops? Teachers? Sure, they don't starve, but they're not rich. And the whole Mexican thing is like the Russian thing--the argument of a simpleton. I doubt you are for real. You are internet performance art.

MM

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:54:24 -0600

It's in the public interest to increase use of public transportation in order to decrease pollution and congestion on the roads. Free may not be the way to go (do people really appreciate something they don't pay for?) but it's worth considering. Having your tax money go to things you may not use is part of living in a large society, period. You benefit from the system some other way.

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:52:04 -0600

But, Ross, do tell: what do you do for a living that makes you so awesome?

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:49:36 -0600

Not your right: I don't drive, so I don't use the roads, so I shouldn't have to pay for them, with your line of reasoning. I don't have children either, so screw the public school system. The government--our money--subsidizes a lot of programs, from the airline industry, to farming, to pensions, to hosptials, to schools. Ross, again I think you just make this shit up, so it's not worth arguing with you.

navin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:47:13 -0600

Great idea letting taxes pay for the train. Let's penalize the people who have jobs and pay taxes through additional income tax, while lazy, useless, losers get another free ride (pun intended). I take it you've never ridden the train/bus to the loop during rush hour. I think it's a given that most people on the cta are using it to get to work. Don't let that get in the way of your 16 year old who just discovered bumper sticker libertarianism logic though.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:45:01 -0600

Vise says: Ross: You are by no means a realist. You are far from it. You discount all the low-paid people who make our economy run Ross> (Mexicans that don't pay taxes or healthcare and still get services from good ol Uncle Sam), and whose work makes it possible for others to be rich: Cops, teachers Ross> they make good money and have good pensions. , food-service workers, landscapers, ross > --Mexicans or imigrants again they pay no taxes and send money home and get great health care. military members, etc. Ross > no one forced them to join.

MM

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:40:32 -0600

Why do you assume that the only reason someone can show sympathy for low-paid workers is that they are one themselves? I have an education and a job that pays well... and a social conscience.

navin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:37:23 -0600

Transit is not your right. It is a service which should be paid for by the people who use it. Why on earth should anyone living in the city and not using CTA have to pay one cent for it? The highway and roads aren't your right either. I don't use the highway, why should I pay for it? At least the CTA is better for the environment and the economy.

radmonkey

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:34:28 -0600

those "low-income" people. They're the ones that have no choice, BUT to ride the CTA Daily. They're the ones who would care the least.

A Lazy Useless Loser!

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:27:02 -0600

Great idea letting taxes pay for the train. Let's penalize the people who have jobs and pay taxes through additional income tax, while lazy, useless, losers get another free ride (pun intended). If you have a job, you can likely swing the $1.75. I did the $1.50 fare on $8.00 an hour for two years. If you don't have a job, you don't really need to ride it now, do you? Come on, its a big city and there is likely a place to buy food within 3-4 blocks.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:24:11 -0600

Killian have some compassion where do you expect them to keep warm. LOL Those poor poor people that are too stupid to take adavantage of our great welfare system.

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:23:51 -0600

Ross: You are by no means a realist. You are far from it. You discount all the low-paid people who make our economy run, and whose work makes it possible for others to be rich: Cops, teachers, food-service workers, landscapers, certain utility workers (not all, of course), military members, etc. By the way, what do you do, big earner? And please tell me you never relied on family or governmental help to attain the high position in life you obviously hold. Thanks for throwing in the cheap Russia reference, though. It really makes no sense, as no one is advocating communism or totalitarianism, but hey, if it feels good, try it. (Moscow, by the way, has the best mass transit I've ever experienced, though I've not yet visited Tokyo.) Tell me again what makes you a realist ... I see you more as some utopian whose paradise will come from 100% free markets. (By the way, we would not have such a great economy if the govt had not built the interstate system so long ago, for one. Take that fact to your next meeting of the Free Market Ahistorical Utopia Club.)

Killian

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:16:42 -0600

In case you haven't noticed, the Red Line is already a home for the homeless in Chicago.

Paris Hilton

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:13:12 -0600

I had to take the sheriff car back to jail, because here in LA we have no public transit! MOM!!!

Not Your Right

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:11:57 -0600

Would there be room for passengers? You have to figure almost every bum in the city would set up permanent residency on the train. Transit is not your right. It is a service which should be paid for by the people who use it. Why on earth should anyone living in the city and not using CTA have to pay one cent for it?

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:09:46 -0600

Sparky: Everything would be great if it was free and the government controlled everything. Didn't Russia try that. Vise says: Unfortunately, Ross, you are simpleton. Plenty of people work their asses off without high pay, and plenty of people have educations and live check to check. I guess we can't all be lawyer, bankers, doctors, marketing execs, etc. -> Well Viese they should get entry level jobs at the CTA or City Hall and they would make more or they could write free for this site. One big problem with the CTA is the pension and health care funding. I may be a simplton as you call it but I am a realist. People can chose to do what ever they want just don't cry about it.

navin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:06:52 -0600

As a transit rider, I'd rather keep it fee-based. I don't feel that individuals who don't use the system should have to subsidize it. lol, Yeah well I don't want to subsidize building more highways, airlines, unecessary military adventures, war profiteering and so on either. It's hilarious how the 'not my tax money!' types only hate their tax money going (which hardly any does) to things that actually are good for the country and our future.

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:03:23 -0600

Hascat: Actually, that's a great idea. Now tell me where I can sign up to stop paying for roads. For the space shuttle (not like I use the darn thing). For Pace. For Metra. Certainly for Social Security (not like I'm old, at least not yet, and I have my own retirement plans). I don't plan on going to prison anytime soon, either. Or even jail. I haven't been in a classroom for a while--why the hell am I still paying to educate all those kids? Shall we scrap government altogether and make everything private? That certainly would be a bold, unique experiment that will lead to a free-market utopia.

Hascat

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:57:16 -0600

As a transit rider, I'd rather keep it fee-based. I don't feel that individuals who don't use the system should have to subsidize it.

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:57:15 -0600

Unfortunately, Ross, you are simpleton. Plenty of people work their asses off without high pay, and plenty of people have educations and live check to check. I guess we can't all be lawyer, bankers, doctors, marketing execs, etc. That said, have you ever heard of Payless? Or would that be slumming it too much?

sparky

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:55:01 -0600

ross: Do you just float that crap on here to get a reaction? There's a lot of people that hold down jobs that they love and excel at that do not make money: social workers, graduate students (some who do not qualify for U-Pass), day care employees, and non-profits. $75 can be a lot of money to them. I rode the fee Metromover in Miami. It was clean and got me where I needed to go, and it was very similar to the rail tram at O'Hare. But Miami also has buses and other trains that you have to pay for. I can afford to take public transportation, and I get the tax-free RTA transit checks, which are nice. In theory, Zorn's idea is great. It would be nice to have free transit in Chicago, but I do not think it can happen until we have complete overhall of the RTA and the funding structure. But I am not optimistic that we will even get the money this year, so it is a long way off. But I also think there would be too many people out there who don't take public transportation that wouldn't want to pay for it. But don't we pay for a lot of public services that we do not necessarily use?

navin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:31:10 -0600

Julene, I think you'll have to go to whatever high school library he posts from. The guy's like a naive jumble of tired, disingenuous, libertarian slogans.

Paris

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:29:12 -0600

>$75.00 shoes are hot.

Julene

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:22:25 -0600

Ross, I had no idea you were such a shoe snob. I'm totally going to check out your shoes next time I see you - they better be expensive.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:17:33 -0600

to: MM Hey if you aren't happy with you lousy job that pays 25 or less a year. Get an education or get a different job. It's always the people on the bottom the ladder that want everything free in terms of servies and it's alway the people on the top of the ladder that dont' want to pay taxes or pay for anything.

prescott

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:09:19 -0600

I'm not completely understanding how making it free would vastly increase ridership. I mean, really, what's the percentage of folks that don't use public transportation because it costs too much? The only cheaper alternatives are walking/biking or staying home. Zorn is saying that it being free will increase ridership -> lead to more trains/buses/routes -> making it more attractive and increasing ridership. Seems like some very circular logic there.

erin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:51:42 -0600

actually i don't remember when people thought he earth was flat. 'twas before my time... this idea sounds like a great way to provide a free pass to the incompetent people running the cta. no more embarassing press conferences explaining how they failed to project finances accurately. instead just sneak in the steady increases within the overall city budget, like every other dept, and if pressed, chalk it up to improving safety or service and who could dare question that...after all, it's "free"!

navin

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:46:46 -0600

Congress just snuck a 2 billion dollar handout to Continental and American airlines into the Iraq funding bill! America has her priorities!

johnny midnight

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:19:35 -0600

Some of this analysis if off-mark. -makes the city more attractive - not everyone wants to use/has access to public transport - do higher taxes in an already highly-taxed area make the city more attractive? -increased ridership = more service - isn't increased ridership part of what is causing service problems? My guess is most people who use public transport now do so because either they must or they make the choice that it is the most attractive alternative - making it free would benefit those with low incomes (depending on how this tax is levied) but probably not make a difference to the more affluent, many of which would drive anyway because of the unreliable and inconvenient service provided by what passes for modern public transport here.

MM

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:04:40 -0600

"Who can't afford 75 bucks a month for public transportation? I can't even buy a pair of shoes for that." Wow... I don't even know what to say to that. How about the people making minimum wage? Forget minimum wage, people making 25, 30K or more/year can have trouble coming up with $75 a month. The average person has to make do with shoes that cost a lot less than $75 (or no new shoes at all). What a twit.

mike

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:28:26 -0600

It moved.

Dino

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:22:21 -0600

A city the size of Chicago will never have free mass transit. Just too big.

ross

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:06:43 -0600

Wouldn't it just become a home for the homeless then if it was free? It seems almost free to me at what they charge now. Who can't afford 75 bucks a month for public transportation? I can't even buy a pair of shoes for that. Of course with the money we have blown in Iraq we could build a lot of mass transit in this country.

John

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:06:30 -0600

I looked over the successful free transit page and found what I was looking for, which was Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I lived there for four years, including when they made the bus system free. Comparing a small college town to a city like Chicago is comparing apples to oranges...however, despite some opposition, the free bus system in Chapel Hill succeeded very well and benefitted everybody. I'd love for free mass transit, but it'll never happen here. I hope I'm wrong.

Benjy

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:03:38 -0600

It really is an interesting proposition, and the numbers don't seem unreasonable at first -- say they need to come up with $400 million (current fares minus collection-related costs) / 8 million residents is only $50 a person. $1 a week per person. But how would free rides impact ridership and how would that increase the costs? And what new costs are created by free transit? Sure we can get rid of money collectors, turnstiles, etc. But won't we also need more police, more security cameras, etc.? Then there's Metra. Can we look to suburban residents to foot the bill for the CTA while also having to pay for Metra? Were Metra to be free, how would that impact the numbers?

vise77

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:57:22 -0600

But such an idea would require this country to move past its highway-centric planning tendencies, and acknowledge that expanded mass transit is not some evil socialist plot to redistribute wealth, but a reasonable reaction to economic, environmental and geographical realities. Hell, even some CTA riders call for privatization, ignoring the fact that it didn't work before, and that not every single problem has a free market solution--that, in fact, the free market is far from perfect. That will be difficult as our society works ever so hard to make everything private, to fence itself into little exclusive communities, to erode civic culture and anything that carries the stink of subsidy and shared burdens. In large part, we have to replace ideological attitudes about mass transit with more pragmatic views, and the chances of that happening anytime soon are about as great as Blago making out with Jacobs, or Jones hanging up on ComEd. But hey, it's nice to think about.