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In typical short-sighted manner, Mayor Daley lashed out at graffiti artists and their parents yesterday. "Who should be responsible, the building owner?" Daley asked the press. "The building owner should sue them." While Hizzoner has had some success battling graffiti as a quality-of-life issue here in the city, Chicago is gearing up for a projected increase in vandalism, anticipating some 170,000 incidents of graffiti vandalism this year.
In response, Daley has proposed an ordinance, at which aldermen balked yesterday, that would have required fines up to $3,000 in restitution or $750, whichever is greater. Additionally, administrative hearing officers would have no authority to lower the fine, or order community service in lieu of the fines. Ald. Freddrenna Lyle (6th) said she's "worried about the grandmother taking care of seven grandchildren because dad is in the penitentiary and mom is someplace — they don't know where she is. ... Is someone from municipal prosecutions going to be standing there saying, 'This young person has never been in trouble before. We recommend to the hearing officer that they get community service as opposed to making this lady over here pay $500 that she doesn't have and she's not going to pay.' Or are we just going to say, 'Everybody who comes in the door [must pay] $500?'"
Of course, like most Daley measures, this isn't really about solving any sort of issue that matters to the people that actually live here and pay his fucking salary. In fact, we think that ordinances like this one are just more window dressing for the white middle class who find the poverty and ethnic culture of the city so edgy until it comes crashing up against their own values and ideals. And families and homeowners in neighborhoods that are plagued by gang violence won't find answers in an ordinance like this either, as most of the social conditions that create gang graffiti won't be solved by forcing parents that often times aren't around, let alone financially solvent, to pony up for these costs.
Just like banning spray paint and wide-tipped markers hasn't stopped vandalism, charging parents, especially parents and guardians who most likely can't afford restitution, won't prevent this sort of thing from going on. Say what you will about graffiti — some people call it art, others call it crime — the bottom line is that crackdowns like this one serve not to prevent or to solve a social ill in a society, they serve to punish those most vulnerable to those ills. Give kids a reason to be in school, give kids a creative outlet, and they won't be as compelled to try to turn your piece of property (still the most sacrosanct concept in our democracy) into a work of art. And they won't have as compelling a reason to join a gang and mark their territory.
Image via graffiti.org.
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Short Sighted Manor? Is that near Robie House?
It's short-sighted now to fine people who deface and damage personal and public property? Sheesh - you know, a government really can handle this sort of thing at the same time as dealing with gang violence; Chicago is not some sort of two-bit town where the government can only deal with one problem at a time.
You didn't bring up the acid etching problem, the pooor gangbangers! They shouldn't be liable for destroying public property, it is evil corporate america that drove them to destroy a $5000 window.
It is short-sighted for all the reasons Kevin brought up. No one is defending vandalism, by the way, or having parents watch over their kids. Rather, this is just reasonable criticism of the dipshit priorities of our munchkin in charge.
As well, it is short-sighted to call for more gun control in response to kids dying rather than going harder after root causes such as poverty or neighborhood neglect.
As well, it is short-sighted to paint some bike lanes and plant rooftop gardens without having a real recycling program or sustained lobbying effort for mass transit.
As well, it is short-sighted to spend millions on boat docks so some rich assholes can benefit and the Olympic people might smile a bit more in our direction, but continue to neglect the issues that appeal to the majority of city residents. (See today's newspaper reports if you haven't already.) We can find millions for boats but the city can't find a dime for the CTA? Yeah, right.
As well, it is short-sighted to use TIFs as payoffs and welfare for developers who don't need it instead of putting that money into the general revenue stream.
The munchkin in charge has a good gig going: Take credit for the rebirth of Chicago, let problems fester, and let his worshippers blame the next (black? brown?) mayor for the inevitable decline or collapse of city finances and infrastructure.
While I agree that a "Grandmother raising six grandchildren" may find the fines burdensome, the fact is that very often graffiti is gang-related and drug selling related. It is a way that kids prove their mettle. That is one of the reasons that CAPS initiatives focus on graffiti because too often it is not about some dynamic, cultural urban art imperative but rather about the Latin Kings tagging their territory. Further, you assume that only middleclass folks who want to turn the city into some kind of version of the 'burbs are offended by the graffiti. Not true, come to my very diverse neighborhood in Uptown and everyone is concerned, not just recent arrivals.
sometimes, i love you, vise.
Wait. Are you defending people who draw on other people's property without permission?
If you like graffiti, then give people permission to draw on YOUR property. But the rest of us choose to have our homes look like how we want them to.
Maybe mom and dad will tell their kids not to vandalize other people's property. And maybe mom and dad are the exact people who should be responsible for their kids behavior. Maybe the things that they have already done didn't work, so they are trying something else?
Get a clue, Robinson.
"Give kids a reason to be in school, give kids a creative outlet, and they won't be as compelled to try and turn your piece of property (still the most sacrosanct concept in our democracy) into a work of art."
Give me a break--have you met a teenager?? Graffiti is not about art or creative expression--it's an adolescent act of rebellion against the cranky grownups who never let them have any fun (insert pout and foot stomp here). Don't fine the little buggers--make them spend all their free time cleaning the messes up, whether they made them or not.
Update
Daley OK with small cut in graffiti fines
CITY HALL | But insists parents must pay for kids' vandalism
June 13, 2007
BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter
Parents of graffiti vandals must pay a price for the damage done by their children to curb an epidemic that is costing Chicago taxpayers a fortune, Mayor Daley said Tuesday.
Daley said he's open to a compromise that includes a somewhat lower fine to appease aldermen who felt he went too far by hitting parents with fines as high as $750 or $3,000 worth of restitution, whichever is greater.
But the mayor said he would insist on a fine sizeable enough to get the attention of parents who seem to look the other way while their unruly teenagers are out spray-painting the city or destroying windows with acid-etching.
Yea Tanky G
Vise beer mos def has his moments and you gotta love the "munchkin in charge" that was right on!
Excuse my language, but are you fucking kidding me? Kids aren't turning buildings into works of art, they're drawing gang symbols and marking their territory. This isn't about freedom of expression, it is about vandalism and intimidation.
There are plenty of programs in the city for artistic kids, Gallery 37 for one, and most schools have some sort of art program in place. (I teach at a CPS school with 85% of the students on free or reduced lunch, so I know what I am talking about.)
As for kids not feeling compelled to join gangs if they have an outlet for their creativity and a reason to be in school, again, are you fucking kidding me? Kids don't join gangs because they're bored. Gangs are so entrenched in some neighborhoods that it isn't unusual to have multiple generations of a family involved in a gang.
This isn't The Outsiders, and these aren't cute misunderstood kids trying to be creative in a world that has forgotten them; don't kid yourself. I work with these kids, I know them, and in many cases, I adore them, but if they tag my classroom, I drag them down to the police officers in our building and have them arrested. Actions have consequences; it is a tough lesson to learn, but they need to learn it sometime. So do their parents.
Heaven forbid we hold people responsible for their actions!! If your allowing your kids to run around and mark their territory like a dog, you should be forced to discover why you are raising little street urchins. Because grandma can't afford a fine, her grandkids should be able to run around and destroy property that people actually work hard to keep looking nice?? What a joke.
Joseph J. Finn and NSH: I never said that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Take our current mayor, for example. Many of his actions have directly resulted in the pending collapse of our public transit infrastructure, as well as the shift in public finances away from things that benefit the vast majority of Chicagoians, such as parks and schools, away to the kinds of things that benefit the wealthy and connected few, such as developers and financial speculators. So yeah, I think people should be held accountable for their actions. I just don't think that charging parents and guardians that are already in over their heads, if they are around at all, will do anything to solve the problem. I would argue that it will simply exacerbate the problem, and compound the effect that Daley has had on the poor in this city already: making the environment here hostile to working and poor people.
Elizabeth in Uptown: This isn't about sanitizing the city and making it look like a suburb. You're correct that we all want to see the city look nicer and be a generally better place to live. The question that we should be asking is not how to "stick it to the Latin Kings" for marking their territory. The question we should be asking is how we eliminate the circumstances that draw people into gangs in the first place. When Daley comes up with some sort of plan for that, I'll get behind it.
Until then, he's wasting our time, as well as our tax money.
Big, big thumbs up to Vise's post.
I'd rather have city dollars paving the poor excuse for a "street" that is my block than chasing after kids.
Gangs are a problem. And graf can be a symptom of that, but often its not. Having an active and vital youth culture is what made cities great and innovative and incubators for the new art and music in the 1970s and 1980s. A willingness to accept a little chaos comes with even the best art communities today. And it's part of the reason that the U.S. is losing its competitive edge in terms of international art and design, massive gentrification of the city center that has not allowed for existing alt-uses is also to blame. There has to be room for looking the other way at much of it.
Gang-related graf might be an exception. I remember though as a kid in the 1980s in Chicago and the suburbs -- that the term "gang" was thrown around rather loosely, which was something that always confused adults.
Yes, there were violent, drug dealing gangs, but there were also what were nothing more than a crew with a name. Spending more money on pools and parks and rec centers and education and job training. And demanding higher quality in all those areas is the way to improve the choices that kids make.
But ignoring the importance of vital youth culture is not a smart move in the long run.
"...fines as high as $750 or $3,000 worth of restitution, whichever is greater."
Um, huh?
Kevin - You remember West Side Story? That was 1957.
You heard of the Mexican zoot suiters and the zoot suit riots? That was 1947.
You read Romeo and Juliet? That was the 1590s.
Have you read Men in Groups? I suggest you do. You'll see that gang activity is a timeless activity of the human animal. It does seem to occur most in people of lower incomes. But fraternities aren't much better - the gangs of the well-to-do.
Here's the thing I find really ironic. The kids who will tag my desks, books, walls, etc, are the same ones that will jump someone for accidently scuffing their new white gym shoes.
DC1974--the tagging in my neighborhood, including the tagging across the back driver's side quarter panel of my car, is all Latin Kings related, not cool artisitc graffiti.
Mike - If it costs $500 to fix the window, the perpetrator has to pay $750 (the higher amount) in fines. If it costs $1,000 to fix the window, the perpetrator has to pay $1,000 (the higher amount). Get it?
Kevin, again you missed the point again. This has nothing to do with some meth addicted punk from hegewisch tagging railroad cars cause mama don't love him. An acid etched window can not be repaired, it must be replaced. The city or panera bread or the bread and bottle on 119th st can not afford to replace every window twice a year because some gangbanger walks by it knowing the only thing that will happen to him or her for tagging is a half day of community service.
Any idiot can see everytime anyone does something wrong in the city it is Daley's fault.
I saw him out at the Niles, IL Target buying spray paint to give to vandals so they could spray paint their names on the wall. Unfortunately for Daley, he had to trek to the suburbs because he helped pass a initiative banning the sale of spray paint.
He was in a hired truck, and he stopped off and bought some vodka and tequila at Sam's for high school kids too. I quoted him as saying "Hey, I'm a Democrat, so you don't need to take personal responsibility for your actions. It is the fault of society and the government, and therefore me!"
Also, if the LK's marked your car as their territory, I'd leave the keys inside it with a full tank of gas. Being on the wrong end of a meeting with them will not be artistic either.
Kevin, I dispute your facts about Daley having shifted money away from "good" things and toward "bad" things. In the first place, money doesn't make good schools, parks or streets. Good management does. The employee to student ratio in the CPS has been growing and growing (more employees), and schools have been getting shittier and shittier.
But anyway, Daley's past actions have nothing to do with whether this law is right or not. Taggers don't get a free pass because you think Daley is a bad mayor.
I posted too fast, Ferdy. As a former court reporter, I should have known that.
I have failed myself and this website.
But to Kevin, that's art.
And to Vise77, the mayor's plan is an excuse to call him a munchkin.
And to spook, it's an excuse to call all white people the devil.
Assholes, every one of you and not because of your opinions. No, it's because of the selfish attitudes you take to form your opinions. Someone doesn't like one thing someone else does, and for that, they're assholes.
You assholes tell me where the solutions are and maybe somebody will listen. Until then, I'm going to beat the shit out of the punk ass SDs or 53s who keep fucking up my two buildings near West Lawn and Gage Park...??
Mike, Court reporter as in someone who covers the courts for a newspaper or as the guy who punches that really cool, silent keyboard. I love those little machines!
The latter are court stenographers, Ferdy.
We used to call them court reporters. Things change. So you don't type silently like the wind?
Actually, Chuckie, there are many, many reasons I think Daley is an asshole--not just one, as you try to imply. You know that because you read my shit and respond to it all the time. As well, you know I've offered alternative ideas--my list above even has one or two. Quit pretending to be a dumbass. Trust me, it doesn't make you any sexier, despite what your friends might have told you.
That said, I salute your "solution" to taggers. Frankly, they should get the shit beat out of them. Perhaps you can call the CPD and have them join in, too. I understand the CPD is the city's best amateur boxing league these days.
Graffiti won't stop. Ever. I don't care how many after school specials you make these kids watch. Just look at the graffiti in the bathrooms at bars - and these are being done by ADULTS! Anyone who knowingly defaces someone else's property is a asshole. Plain and simple.
Graffiti, if left untreated, is like a bed sore. It grows and it festers and it effects the surrounding area. Littering can have the same impact. Combine those and broken windows and boarded up houses and in no time you'll have aghetto.
Graffiti "artists" have some of the biggest egos out there. It's all about one-upping and showmanship - it's about perfecting one's tag and insulting those with no skillz.
Fight 'em where it hurts. Print out these graffiti report cards and tell them what you really think of their douchey art project.
Is it racist or ignorant to think that white middle class people are the only ones who care about graffiti? Both?
Since I'm a member of the white middle class, Kevin Robinson from the 10th Ward (not white or middle class at all!), please explain to me why other people like having their property display random markings that they didn't put there. Do other people wake up to find graffiti and think "Is it Christmas already?" or maybe "Well praise the Lord, I was going to put something like that up myself, but I just didn't have the vision! Thank you for adding to my property value you anonymous master of art you!" or perhaps "If only I had $1,500 not to pay for a new garage door or removing supplies, but to the kid who painted my garage with art. I wouldn't take the Mona Lisa over this!" Is that what other people think Kevin? I'm just a foolish white middle class guy. Please help me, help us all.
gc: you can dispute my "facts" all you want. While you're doing that, go read up on TIFs over at the Chicago Reader; Ben Joravsky has done an excellent job exposing the Mayor's private slush fund that he built by skimming dollars away from schools and parks.
woodlawnchuck: I never claimed that grafitti was defensable because it's "art". I did argue that Daley doesn't have an answer for a symptom of a larger social problem, except to try and stick it to poor people and their families. Should someone be held accountable for their actions if they acid etch the window of a store and get caught? Absolutely - I don't think anyone is against that. Even taggers know the rules of the game; if you get caught, you have to pay for the crime.
As far as telling you what the solutions are, I can't. I've not got some great master plan to solve the social ills of our city (although I have a few ideas). But that's beside the point. I'm not the mayor of Chicago. I don't have to come up with solutions. Richard M. Daley does, however, especially since he keeps telling people to vote for him.
I say if we can get rid of the unsightly graffiti, we can get rid of the even more unsightly billboards. I find them incredibly obnoxious; often poorly conceived; in recent times, downright offensive - but money talks, so they stay. Where are the ordinances to fight eye pollution of this sort? Or does city hall only care about keeping the Loop tasteful?
I find that people who enjoy graffiti and defend it are either the taggers themselves, or urban tourists. You know the people, folks who move into the city, rent apartments, complain loudly about public transportation, and then move back to the suburbs or wherever when they get sick of it after a few years. How many of you actually grew up in Chicago and went to the public schools here?
1. i always love when people read (skim?) a chicagoist post and then scream out with conclusions like "are you condoning graffiti?" or "we shouldn't care about graffiti?" and stuff. ??? when i read the post, it seems to be saying that this measure will monetarily harm people who hardly afford it (literally) and that it will not go to the root of the problem which causes people to join gangs and cause the graffiti in the first place. not "hey, let people deface property at will, i'm all for that."
2. i also think it's important to distinguish between graffiti and street art. some will disagree with me (i'm sure), but i think there's a difference between a hastily scrawled tag in spray paint or an acid etched window and a paste up on a boarded up building or the plywood on a construction site. one is destructive and meaningless (except for marking gang territory) and the other is artistic and thoughtful. aside from putting sticks and paste-ups on street signs (govt. prop), i rarely see these on anything that causes permanent damage to personal property. i see them on ugly things -- newspaper boxes, dumpsters, plywood, etc. i think that's actually pretty cool.
3. vise, you've got it again. harbors? right. if the trains don't work, we can't afford to worry about yachts. that's exactly the kind of shit that amazes me. to the point that i want to throw up. gah.
Jocelyn - I think what some of us are saying is that all this root cause stuff is nonsense when applied to graffiti. We know the mayor is posturing for the business community and that he doesn't care about poor people. He always chooses a fairly noncontroversial type of thing, like gun control or fines for taggers, to make it seem like he cares and is doing something. To even put up a post like this is just pissing in the wind again. Kevin is a good guy, but it gets tiresome to keep picking at the mayor in this Chicken Little manner. Let's get some meat on the bones of these gripes. Chicagoist is, unfortunately, full of trivialities, which is why some of us come here. Entertainment value.
jocelyn- street art is wonderful. joliet il has a mural program that's awesome. for me, the issue is whether the "artist" has the permission of the property owner or not.
kevin- I looked at the Reader stuff, and it's spurious at best. When the headline contains the word "slushfund" and there is no evidence to support it, I really can't believe what they're saying. For example, TIFs don't freeze the dollar amount, they freeze the rate. If you and the Reader can't get that basic fact right, I really can't take you seriously.
Unfortunately, 95% of all graffiti looks like something a drunken 2 year old tried to write, and not the cool pic shown.
If you fine the parents, (in most cases) you are still not punishing the child. Sentence them to do an eternity of community service or ship them off to jail.
They nailed Capone on tax-evasion, so it wouldn't be the first time a gang member was taken off the street by a minor offense.
Kev I think you almost got the point, you said don't think anyone is against that. Even taggers know the rules of the game; if you get caught, you have to pay for the crime.
Right now if someone gets caught, the public defender goes up to the judge, explains that poor little johnny has never done anything wrong in his whole life (except for those 5 priors) and grandma is on public aid and only takes in $400 in food stamps a month so they he can't pay the $5000 in damage that he caused.
Judge rules in some form of community service and little johnny just got out of "paying for the crime"
Now the business has to go out and fix their property themsleves. I guarantee you if you want to make a profit in this town, it won't happen if you have to buy $10,000 in windows every year.
So I say fuck little johnny, fuck his grandma, get a job and pay for the fucking window.
Jocelyn,
Those of us who own newspaper boxes consider them personal property - as does the law.
gc: If you think that the highway robbery that is going on with TIFs here is "spurious at best", you're either incapable of understanding basic math, or you're lying to youself. If you choose not to accept the facts as presented, that's your business. But just because you don't like what Ben Joravsky is writing, about, however, doesn't change the facts of TIFs and how they work.
NSH: It's amazing any of these businesses can even make a buck in this little podunk town, huh?
Note to everyone:
Kevin is off his meds today!!
Ferdy: I don't think that Kevin's legitimate gripes are tiresome, it's the mayor's priorities that are so tiresome. It seems like the mayor has lost touch of the city and his constituents. Yes, the Mayor is posturing for the business community, but only on certain things. When Crain's Chicago Business has an article by Greg Hinz asking why the mayor (and many Chicago businesses) haven't been speaking up about the CTA funding crisis, that says something. Wouldn't the CTA funding benefit businesses, whose employees take the CTA to work?
I applaud Kevin for bringing these issues to light and presenting a forum where regular Chicagoans can "gripe" about these issues. He's not picking on the mayor. Besides, even if you think he is, I am sure that his ego can handle it. There are not many blogs that even discuss these things. If you want to stick to the "entertainment value" of Chicagoist, then feel free to post on wine selections and Lolla, and stay away from these posts.
GC: TIFs divert money into specific projects, meaning that existing agencies such as schools, parks, local government are, at least for a while, denied the (presumed) increases in tax revenues. I forgot what the period is, but the lifespan of a TIF can be as long as 20-24 years, I think (please correct me if I am wrong). And in Chicago, and some other places, there is little oversight about how this money is spent. As well, Illinois has a rather loose definition of "blight," which is one reason why TIFs can be used for a variety of questionable projects in relatively well-off areas.
If you don't believe me, look up the state's TIF law, and read ALL of the Reader articles. Talk to development and zoning attorneys as well, and community activists. A quick call to a school district's public affairs or community outreach director or school board president or even superintendent might be beneficial, too. School officials, including those in the 'burbs, often have strong opinions about TIFs.
In short, GC, you really don't seem to know what you are talking about.
Graffiti, if left untreated, is like a bed sore. It grows and it festers and it effects the surrounding area. Littering can have the same impact.
Eh, gentrified Wicker Park has more graffiti and street 'art' than Humboldt Park so maybe that's not really the case.
Most of the people crying 'the sky is falling' about graffiti in these comments could care less about things like litter, cracked and pot hole ridden streets and other infrastructure problems. Complain about these real problems and you'll get called a 'hater' or an urban poser from the suburbs. As Vise pointed out there are much bigger fish to fry. Congratulate yourselves suckers for falling for Daley distraction yet again.
Vise, and tax-exempt private schools (such as Loyola) can also get TIFs as well. Doesn't make any sense to me.
For a little brush-up on how TIFs work there's a great article in the reader explaining TIFs (and the TIFs for Loyola) from January 27, 2006
joe: i'm not sure which newspaper boxes you own, but i guess i consider sun-times, tribune, and all those free papers a little less "personal" than someone's actual mortar and brick business -- even if it's the gap, because there's an actual store manager working there and who's responsible for it. i'm not saying that's a correct attitude to take, since i even admitted the sticks go up on government property (backs of signs, etc.), which couldn't be more obviously against the law.
scrawling some indecipherable tag doesn't do anything for me and makes me sad, even. especially when i see the graffiti that's on the side of the uptown, for instance. but, i'm not going to lie and say that when i walk down the street and see a "you are beautiful" sticker on a street sign or paper box that i didn't just have my day made, if even for a minute or two.
Kev, maybe business are flourishing in your new neighborhood, but let's take a tour of any ward south of 55th st. I guarantee you an "indie" business man or woman who put their life's work into a shop to make just enough to cover taxes, insurance, petty theft, hourly employee wages, electricity, and heat would have a tough time covering enormous vandalism bills. I know of at least a dozen examples on s western ave alone. If these businesses continue to have to foot the bill for vandalism (and i'm not talking about spray paint and markers here, kev) they're going to go belly up thus leaving the whole south side looking just like the 10th ward. We're all glad you got out, but their are still a few of who give a shit about our neighborhoods.
NSH: You make a great point, but don't you think the Mayor is better off focusing his limited time and energy on making it easier for those businesses to thrive in the city? All we are talking about are priorities. Don't get me wrong, I hate vandalism in all its forms, as its a violation of private or taxpayer-owned property.
And Navin: Some of the same people bitching about the "sky is falling" on vandalism are the ones leaving their Red-Eyes and $4 half-drunk Starbucks on the floor of the Brown Line. Or leaving the stickers on the door of the Brown Line car stating "Bush is a punk-ass chump". How is that shit any different?
Didn't the Pilsen TIF go to what is now a construction project at Juarez high? As I understand it, they are getting what amounts to a $10 million dollar makeover there that includes an expansion. What's funny is that their enrollment is down from what it was. They didn't need any kind of expansion. But, hey, the Mexicans got their new school, right? Or is that some vast conspiracy also?
If you want to talk about strains on the schools, why not look at the fact that there are about 800 illegals attending Kelly. There are about 800 illegals attending Gage Park. These aren't my numbers. These were reported in the papers. They also reported that violence at these schools has spiked, along with grafitti and gang violence. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there's a correlation to all of this. But, hey, it's all Daley's fault, right?
Vise77, I would be that you would not have the balls to say anything to any policeman anywhere in this fair city, even if he was a she, simply because you are an internet tough guy. I bet Daley's taller than you too. But we'll never know it now, will we?
And those kids with the spray paint. Maybe next time I'll give 'em ice cream bar and try to talk them out of it. What do you think?
Kevin, you're painting victims here with criminals. I realize the problem is bigger than what both sides want to say, but that's what you're doing. NSH brings up a good point with your own residency too. From the 10th Ward to what, 1st? What's the matter, all those Czholocks over in Vrdolyland causing you to bug out?
vise, taxes are way to high, energy prices are way too inflated, priorities in the mayor's office are all screwed up. BUT hizzoner has got it right on this one. The city needs to hold these little fuckers monetarily responsible for their actions.
"Vise77, I would be that you would not have the balls to say anything to any policeman anywhere in this fair city,"
Hey woodchuck, don't you read the paper? Its called being smart with all the police brutality going on!
Sparky - I think Kevin has legitimate gripes, but they are focused at the paltry comments Daley makes instead of focusing on the meat of what he does. He's really not much different from Fran Spielman, who just regurgitates what the Mayor's Office issues, only he doesn't like it. When I want real political discussion, I go to The Capitol Fax Blog. Yes, it has its flaws and is anti-Chicago a lot of the time, but there is a great deal of extremely important news and commentary on the entire state and the deals that are being made. Between the major dailies, Chicagoist, and Gaper's Block, I can read about Daley's non-news all I want.
Chuckie: I doubt you know jack about being tough, buddy. After all, you are merely a guy who apparently likes to bully people and talk macho on blogs. That said, there is nothing I need to prove to you, so have fun with your assumptions.
NSH: Fair enough, even if we disagree.
I'm going to challenge your underlying assumption that graffiti isn't that important of a problem. Study after study has proven that when one tag shows up, there is an exponential increase in crime in the area. Malcolm Gladwell explains this better than I can in his book "The Tipping Point", but its also a commonly-known thing among those of us who have grown up in Chicago. Gang graffiti is a "test"... if its removed right away, the gang knows that there is opposition and people are pay attention. If it sits there, it sends the signal that no one is watching or cares... and so breaking and entering or doing other things is going to be easier on this corner. This was something my grandparents knew back in the 70s, and recent studies have proven their instincts right - now, this is pretty much accepted in gang prevention units of the police department, and if you work with at-risk teens this is something you're taught early during training to identify and be aware of.
My solution is that the teen, not the parent who can't afford it anyway, should pay. There should be a garnish on any wages, tax returns, etc. until they pay off the debt gradually over time.
Yeah no kidding look what happens when you just tell one that they can't have another beer.
Hey Spook, I hope you get run over by a black firefighter or policeman the next time you step foot out of your house you little woe-is-me-because-I'm-black-and-everyone-hates-me race-baiter.
Vise77, who is talking tough with all of the b.s. you sling about police and everything in this dear city of MINE? Talk about assumptions and bullying???? I get it, you grew up in a rust belt city that failed. Great. You know what it's like. I better not keep talking because that's when I turn into an internet tough guy who makes threats and bullies people.
Oh, look out here I come making threats!
Ferdy: I think you are missing the point. Daley has built a large part of his power, I think, by the illusion of progress. He often touts these small-fish programs instead of engaging in bolder thinking, ala Bloomberg, for instance. At least, that is what we are complaining about. Like all leaders, he has limited time and energy, and he decides to celebrate these types of programs that, to me, are little more than glorified PR stunts (even though jj makes an interesting proposal). I think these types of complaints are striking at the heart of how Daley operates. Perhaps I am missing your point?
Chuckie: Seriously, are you ill? What's up with you and threats of violence against posters? How old are you? Have you been watching too much A-Team or Walker, Texas Ranger? Do you really think you are scaring people? Someone needs to buy you a beer and ask you why your mom didn't give you enough hugs--either that, or make you understand what a pathetic asshole you are.
Yeah no one likes graffiti or thinks it is art. It's a pain in the ass and no one wants to see that. Can't afford it too bad. Maybe they'll at least beat their kid's ass for being stupid enough to get caught.
Yeah all those yuppies moving in with their jobs and tax contributions they are just destroying everything. It was much better when neighborhoods were being burned down and were consumed with violence. Anyone who doesn't think that was the way it was in the 70's and 80's wasn't here. It wasn't all that great.
Why is it always class warfare on here. Who says these harbors are gonna cost anyone any money you tellin me the boats are gonna be able to park there for free. I doubt that. I'm sure it will be a huge money maker.
Poor education has very little to do with the public school system. It's the parents, they don't value an education so why would their kids. If you wanna fix the system. Pay the top 5% students in the class 10,000 in cash upon graduation and make the bottom 20% pay an extra $2,500 in taxes for wasting everyone's time. That's motivation and then maybe kids won't treat the kids that work hard at school like they are bunch of wankers.
Show me any threat Vise77.
Vise - The only way you can strike someone's heart is by aiming at it, not getting hooked on his bait. It's like critiquing the quality of Nero's fiddling instead of grabbing a bucket. Go after the serious allegations - his no-bid contracts, his attempts to cut the public out of decisions, his consorting with felons, etc etc. I just don't see how every major news outlet and the major internet blogs covering the same non-news is hurting Daley at all. It's all distraction.
Why is it always class warfare on here.
Why is it only class warfare when the lower classes shoot back?
These little threats that Chuckie doll is making is hilarious. Maybe we should set up a Chicagoist Dance-Off for Vise and Chuckie. It would be non-violent. We could get an old-school boom box and invite everyone to watch.
This may solve the problem. But my guess is that Chuckie doll really just needs to get laid.
Ferdy: I have to agree with you on one point: why haven't the major media outlets been seriously questioning Daley's motives or actions (or lack of action, in the whole CTA funding crisis)? Is it that it's not sexy? Are they too lazy or apathetic? Are editors really that chicken-shit that they won't fight the mayor? I hold the major media (and no offense to Chicagoist, but it is not major media) partially responsible for letting Daley run amok, and not questioning his policies or ideas.
Lotsa silliness here today.
1. The 10th Ward is largely working class/middle class. It isn't some hellhole. The problems that exist there in terms of retail businesses(or the lack thereof) are largely due to the proxmity to lower sales tax Indiana.
2. Don't minimize the destruction of "etching" windows. That should be treated more seriously than graffiti simply based on the cost. Have we no work camps? Take the offender, lock his ass up for a week, fine him, work him to the point of exhaustion cleaning my alley and the parks and then we'll see if "graffiti" drops. If he gets caught again see how he likes 3 months in a work camp. I imagine cleaning up the forest preserves would get boring for these daring urban devil may care types.
3. Daley isn't responsible for every problem in this city. He is responsible for the waste, cronyism, and plain bad management. For example, besides the obvious problems in the public schools regarding management and teachers the main problem is PARENTS.
4. Expecting the "city" or "government" to solve every social problem is unrealistic. Government programs have an important role to play, but sometimes punishment is the answer.
5. Graffiti sucks. It very seldom resembles anything "artistic". Where it is "art" it should be done by permission of the property owner or government entity. There are places throughout the city where permission was granted for a particular wall. Unique Thrift Store around 4500 Sheridan has such a wall which was done in conjunction with the local Jesus thumpers at the Uptown Baptist Church.
For those that care:
The picture accompanying this post is from
Anthony Lewellen www.alewellen.com
"You are beautiful" is a project from
Michael Genovese and Chris Silva (possibly others that I'm leaving out)
genovesestudios.com and www.chrissilva.com
Fining parents/guardians who may not have the money to pay for it will not fix the problem. Put the kids to work cleaning up their own "art". If that is infeasible then give them hard, manual, outdoor, chain gang-style labor.
Ferdy: OK, I see your point better. Thanks.
I think that many of us have criticized Daley for these big things, though. I know I have. I'll criticize him for his PR stunts, too, but you are right about focus.
Irish: Like your #2. A lot.
Chuckie: It's just not your city, FYI. It's OUR city, not MINE. Perhaps that's the root of your problems. I'd love to dance with ya, though, as Sparky suggests. You can even lead if you want. I prefer waltzes to cowboy music, though. And I can't stand the blues, not even the slow grinding stuff.
irishpirate beat me to it.
I'm critical of Daley at times but I think he's on the right track with this, though I don't agree with the specifics. Taking a hard line against graffiti and etchings shows wannabe thugs that no crime is tolerable.
Of course this new anti-graffiti program is a distraction from the city's more pressing problems! Just look at how much time everyone has spent arguing about it today.
Meanwhile, we have no idea if the CTA will meltdown before the end up the year, if the teachers and CPS will come up with a contract, or if the public school system will get the money it needs from the state.
But hey, now property owners can sleep soundly at night, knowing that on the slim chance their building gets tagged, and on the slimmer chance that the tagger is caught, our government will chase the tagger's family down for money it doesn't have. That's all that matters, right? Just forget about the working poor who have no way to get to their jobs because their bus line was cut, and whose neighborhood schools continue to wallow in mediocrity at best.
Thank you Skaterina for your incisively stupid post.
The article was about graffiti. There are other articles in the archives about the CTA.
Why don't we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya while you lecture us on what is important.
Why not discuss the war in Iraq. That is certainly more important than the CTA. Let's rename the site "Americaist" and deal with only the huge problems.
Wait........how about "UnitedNationist" and we shall sing and talk about the genocide in Darfur.
I will leave you with two words Skaterina: soap and water.
skaterina; I'm sick of hearing about the CTA. Huberman should fire every single employee and start over from the ground up.
The teachers Union itself shouldn't be so greedy and should concentrate on the teachers. Did you know they were one of the largest donors to Gov. Rods last campaign. Hundreds of thousands were given to him!! What a waste of money that could have been used on the teachers.
Put some people in government that actually know how to spend an honest buck and you will have a lot of problems answered.
Other than that- Every issue in this city gets in due share of the spotlight. The CTA has more than it's fair share.
Lighten up
i'm with irish/vise ... your #2 actually makes sense. it punishes an offender and has actual consequences for the person who committed the crime and relates directly to the offense they committed.
as far as it all being about the PARENTS, i want to offer up the idea that it's not always that the parents don't care. sometimes there's addiction involved. sometimes they aren't present for that reason. sometimes the parents are working two jobs just to survive and aren't present for that reason. sometimes the parents have raised their children the best they can, and children still make poor decisions for themselves. at some point, children become their own entities and do what they will. of course, a parent could kick their child out, but that is often easier said than done, for lots of reasons.
i don't like the generalization that these are just lazy, shitty, lame ass parents who just don't give a fuck about their kids. sometimes that's true. but sometimes, there's lots of other socioeconomic forces at work that people fail to recognize. these are BIG problems that are very complex, and to reduce them to simplistic problems with simplistic answers doesn't serve anyone.
The "bolder thinking" Bloomberg is out in a few years because he and his NYC city council have term limits. We need that here. Ousting the career politicians may be the only thing to save the city at this point.
How does a collective of citizens go about introducing a referendum?
prescott: For a good primer on the history of referendums in Illinois, see our interview with Lt. Governor Pat Quinn.
Thank you, I just did.
We're fucked.
NSH - don't get me started on the Acid Etching. That PISSES ME OFF.
Why? I actually work with glass, and I can't get the damn supplies here in the city because stupid kids have decided it's FUN TO DEFACE STUFF.
So now I'm screwed. If I need Velvet Etch, or Sandblast Resist, or cutting tools (which, mind you, are NOT cheap anyway), instead of going to Pearl or Blicks like any other artist would, I have to go on the internet and wait or schlep out to the burbs and hope I can find what I need. It totally sucks.
Stupid new laws. Stupid gangbangers who make it hard for those of use who use things for the purpose for which they were intended. I have no problem at all that those little fuckers get caught and slapped with big fines. Doesn't help me much when I need supplies, though.
*sigh*
bibliogrrl: yeah, i saw someone on a show spray paint something the other day and i thought ... maybe i should do that to a piece of furniture. it would be easier than paint-painting it (i didn't care about the quality so much as changing the color). and then i realized i actually cannot buy spray paint in the city of chicago. how bizarre.
Bibliogrrl: Do you have allergies? I do, and if I want to breath now, not only do I need to show my driver license, but I have to pay quadruple...maybe I need to look into starting a methlab just to support my sinuses.
Jocelyn - I'm used to not being able to buy spray paint here, you haven't been able to FOREVER. But the glass etching thing is new... and really, really annoying.
Initially, I need to point out that the language of your column wasn't edgy or insightful. It was childish and immature. If you want to argue with grown-ups, you should try speaking like one and grown-ups don't use that sort of language.
The problem with your choice of language is that it makes it very easy to dismiss your point. Rather than saying "He raises a valid point", it is too easy to say "Ignore this. It is the rambling of a fool who lacks the ability to control his temper."
That's unfortunate, because your column makes some great points.
"Even taggers know the rules of the game; if you get caught, you have to pay for the crime."
The fines are just another way of paying for the crime. I agree they aren't likely to have much effect, but I fail to see why it is wrong to hold people responsible for those actions. And if it's a minor, the parents are responsible.
Kevin, you lament the possibility of their fiscal state, and inability to pay the fines... well, controlling your children's behavior and teaching values of respect for the law don't really have that high of a price tag, do they? Poverty is not an excuse for unlawfulness. To claim so is an affront to those who are poor and *don't* vandalize property or steal--which is most of the poor. It is possible to be poor and raise children responsibly. Many people do it, and they don't have to worry about fines.
"I'm not the mayor of Chicago. I don't have to come up with solutions."
Ah, yes, how right you are! Citizens of a city have no business actually taking some responsibility for the place they live and offering their own solutions or--god forbid--getting involved to make a difference!
Skeeter: try not to let the brutal language of the masses prevent you from being exposed to other thoughts and ideas.
Dave!: I have no problem with fines and other legal consequences. I don't think it's wrong for people to be held accountable for their action. I think it's silly to spend the state's resources trying to force a group of people that lack the ability and financial means to pay for the crimes of their children. Wouldn't the interests of the city be better served by focusing on the root cuases of crime, as well as figuring out how to eliminate it (Graffiti Blasters seemed to work quite well when it was funded)? You could make the arguement, I suppose, that these fines would pay for clean up. I suspect that we will spend more money trying to collect than actually recouperating those costs.
As for the citizenry taking some responsibility, here's some for you: I wish the mayor of Chicago would quit pandering to the lowest common denominator in this city, and offer up some innovative solutions to the very real problems that we are facing. I mean, if they caught the kid defacing property, and managed to get a conviction, can't the city sentence him to cleaning up vandalism, and working toward resititution (ie etched glass?) I'm not unwavering in critique of Daley and the city council; it's sad, though, that the debate we're having here on Chicagoist isn't the debate that's being had on LaSalle street.
Kevin,
Don't be ridiculous. The choice of language wasn't "brutal." It was childish. And it sure wasn't the language of the "masses." The "masses" are not fools and it is insulting to them for you to claim otherwise.
The language was an indication of a lack of control of the language and nothing more. It was an immature rant rather than an argument.
You can be tough and forceful and still use words that are appropriate.
Martin Luther King's language could be brutal. His ideas were brutal. He could effectively attack institutions. He did it by harnessing the language and turning phrases that made people think. There was nothing like that here.
As I said -- it is a shame because the writer did have a point to make.
OK, I'll bite: How was the language childish?
You have two posts about this, but no freaking examples.
By all means, be a critic, but critics, even great ones such as yourself, typically offer examples.
Scott - I am SO WITH YOU on the allergy meds, too. I don't have a problem getting my claratin (yet)... but man, I HATE TRYING TO BUY COLD MEDICINE. bastards.
(and you've heard about never using a coffee pot in a hotel room right? but that's another post altogether.)
These young Jackson Pollocks and William Hogarths of whom you embrace do not attend schools of design nor are they inclined to partake of a disciplined course of study, nor would they care to be credited with fine feelings of young senstive folks who wicker up a smart bathroom!
These design enthusiasts mark territory in much the same way as your Tabby.
We ( an inner city Catholic high school for young black men) spend $15 per maintenance person per hour removing untitled exhibitions from the alley wall between Peroria and Sangamon which cuts into operations costs for black students trying to get an education. Are you really so racist as to deny these young men an education?
Wealth and entitlement aside, you are harming young black men!
Pat Hickey: You are correct that Daley is harming black men, and in more ways than just trying to force them or their parents to pay for vandalism.
The very fact that you have to defend the financial status of a private institution for the education of underprivledged young black men in the city of Chicago speaks volumes to the complete failure of the Daley administration. I mean really, if he, or anyone else in this city actually cared about black men, or any youth other than white middle class children, then we wouldn't have to worry about financing private education, would we? The real racism in this city flows not from those of us that are critical of Daley's sorry attempts to take credit for sprucing up a city that benefited from the economic boom of the 90's. The real racism is the grossly unequal and unfair distribution of resources in Chicago, as well as the disproportionate punitive actions of the city.
While I am not defending the destruction of property, (and never did - if you read my post I was criticizing Daley for his half-assed attempts at crafting social policy that is guaranteed to fail), I can tell you that a few people I grew up with that were enthusiatic about graffiti did in fact go on to get formal educations in design and art at the Art Institute or Columbia College, and are now gainfully employed doing what they both love and are good at.
Kev,
That one went right by you, Son! Daley is correct.
Spray painting is bad; tagging is wrong; not art; a defacement; requires heavy fines from Moms and Dads of taggers.
Here's the deal - most Chicagoans do not read the Chicago Reader - bad writing and worse reportage - kind of like getting a Classical education by reading only Cliffs Notes. It is great that you folks do; nonsense is nonsense; vandalism is always a crime requiring punishment. Talk it up with gand at the bistro or cafe!
Pat: In your effort to prove you are the last brilliant conservative in Chicago (I know who you are, by the way), did you ever stop to think that satire and sarcasm are nearly impossible to pull off in blog responses such as this one? That's because tone is lost. Surely your vast knowledge of the classics has taught you that.
By the way, I enjoyed your Redstate post today. Another holier-than-thou rant that really added no new ideas.
Vise,
I'm too losse with a buck to be a conservtive and too comfortable in my wrinkled old skin to need a sock-puppet. Enjoy your work.
Pat Hickey: I was with you until you unleashed your brutal disdain for the Reader and sock-puppets.
I miss Senor Sock...why's John Henson on the TV Guide channel?
And why is anyone upset about punishing vandalism?
Senor Sock: Que Hombre! Es Verdad, Mi Amigo!
Restitution works! The Los Angeles MTA in April got a $40,000. judgement where by mom and dad rescued junior from prison, he was just a kid afterall of 25 years old! They didn't want junior to have a roommate named "Bubba". Junior was also ordered to pay $200. a week for 5 years, to address his $50,000. in damage. Why should society pay? Two vandals in Palmdale California, $500,000. in restitution, they to were adults over 18, though once caught even an adult of 25 wants to be punished like a toddler!
I didn't agree with Mayor Daley when I testified in court in 1993, Chicago regarding the aerosol spray paint BAN, as I said etching acid or carved would in part replace aerosol, but I agree with his statements now! Vandals be it "taggers", Latin Kings or Vice Lords, need to be accountable. The gangs make their own members accountable, why not society?
Then if grandma, pa, mom or dad had to do Community Service with junior for 52 weekends imagine what family bonding might occur! Mom so happy that she cooks junior his favorite meals, buying junior his favorite cereals "Lucky Charms", then doing his laundry so he can not look like the grunge he is when he hangs out with his girlfriend. Or is it the other way around, will mom, dad, Omi and grandpa be pissed off that they can't drink beer and watch the big games because they are busy cleaning up juniors messes, but atleast they can do it together. Yes, tell Richard restitution and community service where the family can join together, junior included to paint some walls.
Per the acid etched glass, there are several methods of repair over replacement. I emailed some to 40 of 50 Alderman 2 weeks ago. They don't need to replace the glass.
If Chicago and Mayor Daley really wants to impact this graffiti epidemic, tell him to give me a jingle. Pre 1993 Aerosol Spray Paint BAN, I researched Chicago on foot 6 times. Post, the aerosol BAN in 1995 I researched Chicago again and began tracking the glass etching trend. In 1992/93 I came in as a undercover reporter and used Mr. Walkers program C.A.R.E. to make my way slowly into the graffiti culture. One Aerosol arist from "AEROSOUL" (John) took me to his home where he had hundreds of spray paint cans in his basement. The aerosol art of Carlos was impressive, sometimes legal sometimes not! The "Fly Sheet", hip hop shops and some scary underpasses on the Southside were the stomping grounds of a few hundred "taggers" and "piecers" who were up and coming.
I rode the L, checked out roofs and alleys beneath the tracks, criss crossed the city and interviewed the non profits. Back then an inner city museum actually had an art class that demonstrated acid etching glass, introduing both the legal and illegal posibilities. Adhesive labels were every where and political campaign posters so many, they were a rival to the illegal labels. From Commander Dalton in the 1980's, to Lt. Angone in the early 1990's I tracked Chicago and several hundred other U.S. Cities as the founder of the "National Graffiti Information Network". Finding the writers was never the problem, this has always been a war between liberals and conservatives.
A simple truth, "when the punishment outweighs the pleasure of the offense, the offense will cease". Simply enforcement and penaly rule the rate of reoccurence. From a slap on the wrist, to canning in some asian countries, there is a point that is different with all vandals. Some foreign cities have no graffiti why is that? Its not tollerated! In Seattle last week a police officer was beat down by a whole family of taggers. 2 decades back a little old man in San Gabriel California was threatened by vandal doing his fence and he returned with a shot-gun, 2 wounded, one dead, but you know his wall was not hit again. Taggers in Southern California have alligned themselves with street gangs, they carry weapons and some like the label of "tagbangers" as reported in the news. Caudle them as misunderstood children that just happen to be carrying a 9mm pistol and you will be talking about this in another decade and nothing but more graffiti will change. Come down hard, every time and you will slowly see change.
Montana Spray paint from Spain produces 20,000 cans of spray paint a day, selling admittedly to 99% graffiti writers. thats 5 million cans a year, 2/3rds coming to the U.S. market. Carl Weston who has produced his underground video series "Video Graf" since 1989, says business in good, he pays for his nice Manhattan apartment in NY. He and I dialog and he says his side is winning and that is absolutely true! Tim tracy at nearly 50 years old who produced the graffiti magazine "Can Control" sold me Magazines from ebay last month, years ago he relocated from Los Angeles to the Seattle area. These folks are not invisible, but society operates with rules from 9-5! Writers are 24/7, have no rules and could care less about society or what anarchy cost taxpayers, yes ANARCHY, read the books this culture authors. Have not's destroying values as retaliation and society losing ground year after year, with graffiti abatement cost rising!
Go get pissed off and you can change your environment, piss and moan about how Mayor Daley is approaching this issue, without a better plan, then you are reaping what you sew. Its pretty simple when you consider I communicate with those that destroy properties as a hobby. My hands are tied because most cities are not angry enough, nor do most understand the will power it takes to fight back. I have been the writers enemy since 1985, 22 years fighting a losing battle exempting a handful of cities. A State License Painting Contractor since 1976, so exposed to the vandalism 31 years.
How determined are Chicagoan'S?