Chicagoist: Should Have Stuck to Teaching Art

guest

Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:40:17 -0600

found this on his web site - turns out he hates all holidays and he not only wants to ruin christmas, now he has enlisted more to ruin holloween! read this! this nut needs to be locked up! The campaign consists of passing out small business cards to children wherever they may be. “Thanks to compassionate people and their extensive connections all over the world, animal rights groups, vegetarians, vegans, and humane educators will be passing out business cards to children wherever they may be.” Warwak adds, “Groups are hitting the streets, during times when children are most likely to be out and about. Groups are already planning on a full force presence on Halloween. Even vegans who stay home will be passing out vegan candies accompanied by a message of love.” Then Warwak proudly proclaimed, “So far today, I passed out 34 cards!” The business card’s front reads: Remember the Santa Claus lie? One lie is so bad, some people prefer to keep it hidden. So hidden, some never find out! Do you want to live a lie? The back reads: Go to your favorite search engine. Look-up “Factory Farming” Look-up “Vegan” “Naming a rock, a banana, does not make it food”

guest

Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:32:48 -0600

Vegan teacher rains on town's parade 12 Oct. 2007 Williams Bay, Wisconsin Source: http://newsblaze.com/topstories.html Dave Warwak received a strong warning today from his hometown police, during the town’s annual homecoming parade. Accompanied by his dog, Warwak allegedly entered the town’s parade and passed out small cards to children. Police stopped Warwak, escorted him home and instructed him to “stay away from the town’s children”. The warning came in response to parent and teacher complaints who were in attendance. At particular issue with police was Warwak telling children, Santa Claus is not real. The card’s front reads: Remember the Santa Claus lie? One lie is so bad, some people prefer to keep it hidden. So hidden, some never find out! Do you want to live a lie? The back reads: Go to your favorite search engine. Look-up “Factory Farming” Look-up “Vegan” “Naming a rock, a banana, does not make it food” A teacher of ten years in Illinois, Warwak was recently fired for his vegan views. Warwak filed an appeal in response to his termination. No date has been set. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://inslide.com/respect Adama Speaks interviews Warwak on Atlanta Radio http://inslide.com/01AdamaWarwak.mp3 http://inslide.com/02AdamaWarwak.mp3 http://inslide.com/03AdamaWarwak.mp3 http://inslide.com/04AdamaWarwak.mp3 http://inslide.com/BRSPodcast_410082007.mp3 http://www.criticalmention.com/report/dave200709120156313434.htm http://www.bestsyndication.com/?q=100207_teacher_fired_because_of_vegetarian_anti_meat_lesson_chicago_schools.htm

guest

Wed, 03 Oct 2007 22:56:41 -0600

October 3, 2007 Timothy Mahaffy, Jackie Krause, Fox River Grove District 3 Board Members***, and the Illinois State Board of Education, In direct response to Fox River Grove School District 3 letter of termination received on September 27, 2007, a hearing is now officially requested as an appeal to the wrongful termination of Dave Warwak per ILSC 105 in which a hearing on the below charges before disinterested hearing officers on a date no less than 15 nor more than 30 days after the enactment of the motion. The secretary of the school board shall forward a copy of the notice to the State Board of Education. Within 5 days after receiving this notice of hearing, the State Board of Education shall provide a list of 5 prospective, impartial hearing officers. Each person on the list must be accredited by a national arbitration organization and have had a minimum of 5 years of experience directly related to labor and employment relations matters between educational employers and educational employees or their exclusive bargaining representatives. No one on the list may be a resident of Fox River Grove, IL. Fox River Grove School District 3 chose to ignore the Federal Trade Commission’s ruling against misleading commercial advertising in schools. I am being terminated for my response to the pro-dairy propaganda in the school cafeteria in which, I, as an Art Teacher, was educating students about the power of advertising in the Visual Arts. Specifically, how the Meat and Dairy Industry uses its influence to shape and guide the values and morals of society through indoctrination. Charges, not limited to, but include the following: In retaliation of Dave Warwak's performance of his official duties and in an attempt to avoid compliance and/or legal action regarding their neglect in addressing ILSC violations and other Child Endangerment issues, Jackie Krause, Timothy Mahaffy, and the Fox River Grove School District 3 Board of Education Members***, knowingly and willfully, exposed Dave Warwak to hatred, contempt, and ridicule, while Warwak was engaged in the execution of his official duties, in which, said members prevented the defendant from performing his official duties. SB0100 (720 ILCS 5/12-110) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-6) Sec. 12-110 12-6. Intimidation; aggravated intimidation. (a) Intimidation. A person commits intimidation when, with intent to cause another to perform or to omit the performance of any act, he or she communicates to another, directly or indirectly by any means whether in person, by telephone or by mail, a threat to perform without lawful authority any of the following acts: (1) Inflict physical harm on the person threatened or any other person or on property; or (2) Subject any person to physical confinement or restraint; or (3) Commit a felony or Class A misdemeanor any criminal offense; or (4) Accuse any person of an offense; or (5) Expose any person to hatred, contempt or ridicule; or (6) Take action as a public official against anyone or anything, or withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding; or (7) Bring about or continue a strike, boycott or other collective action. (b) Aggravated intimidation. A person commits aggravated intimidation when he or she violates subsection (a) and: (1) the person committed the offense in furtherance of the activities of an organized gang or because of the person's membership in or allegiance to an organized gang; or (2) the offense is committed with the intent to prevent any person from becoming a community policing volunteer; or (3) the following conditions are met: (i) the person knew that the victim was a peace officer, a correctional institution employee, a fireman, or a community policing volunteer; and (ii) the offense was committed while the victim was engaged in the execution of his or her official duties, to prevent the victim from performing his or her official duties, in retaliation for the victim's performance of his or her official duties, or by reason of any person's activity as a community policing volunteer. (c) (b) Sentence. (1) Intimidation as defined in subsection (a) is a Class 3 felony for which an offender may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 2 years and not more than 10 years. Tim Mahaffy, as acting Principal, knowingly and willfully neglected his duties in reporting child abuse occurring in and out of Mr. Warwak’s class as required in (105 ILCS 5/34 84a.1) (from Ch. 122, par. 34 84a.1) Sec. 34 84a.1. Principals shall report incidents of intimidation. The principal of each attendance center shall promptly notify and report to the local law enforcement authorities for inclusion in the Department of State Police's Illinois Uniform Crime Reporting Program each incident of intimidation of which he or she has knowledge and each alleged incident of intimidation which is reported to him or her, either orally or in writing, by any pupil or by any teacher or other certificated or non certificated personnel employed at the attendance center. "Intimidation" shall have the meaning ascribed to it by Section 12 6 of the Criminal Code of 1961. (Source: P.A. 91 357, eff. 7 29 99.) Timothy Mahaffy, as acting Principal, knowingly and willfully prevented Dave Warwak from performing his said duties as described under (105 ILCS 5/27 12)(from Ch. 122, par. 27 12) Sec. 27 12. Character education. Every public school teacher shall teach character education, which includes the teaching of respect, responsibility, fairness, caring, trustworthiness, and citizenship, in order to raise pupils' honesty, kindness, justice, discipline, respect for others, and moral courage for the purpose of lessening crime and raising the standard of good character. (Source: P.A. 94 187, eff. 7 12 05.) Timothy Mahaffy, Jackie Krause, and the Fox River Grove District 3 Board Members***, knowingly and willfully withheld Moral and Humane Education from teachers of Fox River Grove School District 3 for 8 years, as required under (105 ILCS 5/27 15)(from Ch. 122, par. 27 15) Sec. 27 15. Moral and humane education In institute programs. The superintendent of each region and city shall include once each year moral and humane education in the program of the teachers' institute which is held under his supervision. (Source: P.A. 79 597.) Fox River Grove District 3 Board Members***, Gerry Blohm, Steve Knar, Tom Mollet, Susan McGarrigle, Lisa Anderson, Kris Germain, and Pat Hughes are personally liable as described under (105 ILCS 5/22 7) (from Ch. 122, par. 22 7) Sec. 22 7. Liability for loss of funds. County superintendents, trustees of schools, township treasurers and directors, or either of them, or any other officer having charge of school funds or property, shall be pecuniarily responsible for all losses sustained by any county or township fund by reason of any failure on his or their part to perform the duties required of him or them by this Act or by any rule authorized to be made by this Act, and each of such officers shall be liable for any such loss sustained, the amount of which may be recovered in a civil action brought in the circuit court, at the suit of the State of Illinois, for the use of the county, township or fund injured. The amount of the judgment obtained in such suit shall, when collected, be paid to the proper officer for the benefit of the county, township or fund injured. (Source: P.A. 79 1366.) The following 1989 Realties are included herein, as this data has been delivered and recorded delivered, in April 2007 to Timothy Mahaffy, and again at the 24 September 2007 Board of Education Meeting to all concerned parties in attendance: Food Realities from 1989 Human population of United States: 243,000,000 Number of Human beings who could be fed by the grain and soybeans eaten by U. S. livestock: 1,300,000,000 Sacred food of Native Americans: Corn Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20 Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80 Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95 Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90 Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through livestock:99 Percentage of dietary fiber wasted by cycling grain through livestock:100 How frequently a child dies of starvation: Every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000 Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165 Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56 Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 Pounds of protein fed to chickens to produce 1 pound of protein as chicken flesh: 5 pounds Pounds of protein fed to hogs to produce 1 pound of protein as hog flesh: 7.5 pounds Number of children who starve to death every day: 40,000 Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20 Number of people who will starve to death this year: 60,000,000 Number of people who could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 60,000,000 Historic cause of demise of many great civilizations: Topsoil depletion Percentage of original U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75 Amount of U.S. cropland lost each year to soil erosion: 4,000,000 acres (size of Connecticut) Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly associated with livestock raising: 85 Number of acres of U.S. forest which have been cleared to create cropland to produce a meat-centered diet: 260,000,000 How often an acre of U.S. trees disappears: Every 8 seconds Amount of trees spared per year by each individual who switches to a pure vegetarian diet: 1 acre A driving force behind the destruction of the tropical rainforests: American meat habit Amount of meat imported annually by U.S. from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama: Less than the average American housecat Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests and related habitats: 1000/year User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the United States: Livestock production Quantity of water used in the production of the average cow: sufficient to float a destroyer Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons Water needed to produce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons Cost of common hamburger meat if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by U.S. taxpayers: $35/pound Current cost for pound of protein from wheat: $1.50 Current cost for pound of protein from beefsteak: $15.40 Cost for pound of protein from beefsteak if U.S. taxpayers ceased subsidizing meat industry's use of water: $89 Length of time world's petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate meat-centered diet: 13 years Length of time world's petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate vegetarian diet: 260 years Principal reason for U.S. military intervention in Persian Gulf: Dependence on foreign oil Barrels of oil imported daily by U.S.: 6,800,000 Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy expended) of most energy efficient farming of meat: 34.5% Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy expended) of least energy efficient plant food: 328% Pounds of soybeans produced by the amount of fossil fuel needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 40 Percentage of raw materials consumed in U.S. for all purposes presently consumed to produce current meat-centered diet: 33 Percentage of raw materials consumed in U.S. for all purposes needed to produce fully vegetarian diet: 2 Production of excrement by total U.S. human population: 12000 lb/sec Production of excrement by U.S. Livestock: 250,000 pounds/second Sewage systems in U.S. cities: Common Sewage systems in U.S. feedlots: Nil Amount of waste produced annually by U.S. livestock in confinement operations which is not recycled: 1 billion tons Relative concentration of feedlot wastes compared to raw domestic sewage: Ten to several hundred times more highly concentrated Where feedlot waste often ends up: In our water Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 Number of U.S. medical schools with a required course in nutrition: 30 Training in nutrition received during 4 years of medical school by average U.S. physician: 2.5 hours How frequently a heart attack strikes in U.S.: Every 25 seconds How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: Every 45 seconds Most common cause of death in U.S.: Heart attack Risk of death from heart attack by average American man: 50% Risk of death from heart attack by average American vegetarian man: 15% Risk of death from heart attack by average American purely vegetarian man: 4% Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs 10%: 9% Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs 50%: 45% Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs 100%: 90% Rise in blood cholesterol from consuming 1 egg per day: 12% Rise in heart attack risk from 12% rise in blood cholesterol: 24% Meat, dairy and egg industries claim there is no reason to be concerned about your blood cholesterol as long as it is: "normal" Your risk of dying a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is "normal": over 50% Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if you do not consume saturated fat and cholesterol: 5% Leading sources of saturated fat and cholesterol in American diets: Meat, dairy products and eggs Hollywood celebrity paid by Meat Board to tout beef as "Real food for real people": James Garner Medical event experienced by James Garner in April, 1988: Quintuple coronary artery bypass surgery World populations with high meat intakes who do not have correspondingly high rates of colon cancer: None World populations with low meat intakes who do not have correspondingly low rates of colon cancer: None Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to women who eat meat less than once a week: 4 times higher Egg Board's advertising slogan: The incredible edible egg Photographs often accompanying the egg board's slogan: Young women in bathing suits, emphasizing the shape of their breasts Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat eggs daily compared to women who eat eggs less than once a week: 3 times higher Milk Producer's original ad campaign slogan: "Everyone needs milk." What the Federal Trade Commission called the "Everyone needs milk" slogan: "False, misleading and deceptive" Milk Producer's revised campaign slogan: "Milk has something for everybody." Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat butter and cheese 3 or more times a week compared to women who eat these foods less than once a week: 3 times higher Part of female chicken's body that produces eggs: Ovaries Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week compared to women who eat eggs less than once a week: 3 times higher Foods males in U.S. are conditioned to think of as "manly": Animal products Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meats, cheese, eggs and milk daily compared to men who eat these foods sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times higher The Meat Board tells us: "Today's meats are low in fat." The Meat Board shows us: A serving of beef they claim has "only 300 calories". The Meat Board doesn't tell us: The serving of beef they show us is only 3 ounces (half the size of an average serving of beef) and has been surgically defatted with a scalpel. The dairy industry tells us: Whole milk is 3.5% fat. The dairy industry doesn't tell us: That 3.5% figure is based on weight and most of the weight in milk is water. The dairy industry doesn't want us to know: The amount of calories as fat in whole milk is 50%. Oscar Mayer tells us: It is a "myth" that hot dogs are fatty. Oscar Mayer demonstrates their point favorably comparing the fattiness of hot dogs to such low fat bastions as: Margarine, mayonnaise, salad dressing and cream cheese. The Dairy Council tells us: Milk is nature's most perfect food. The Dairy Council doesn't tell us: Milk is nature's most perfect food for a baby calf, who has four stomachs, will double its weight in 47 days, and is destined to weigh 300 pounds within a year. The Dairy Council tells children: To grow up big and strong drink lots of milk. The Dairy Council occasionally tells children: The enzyme necessary for digestion of milk is lactase. The Dairy Council never tells children: 20% of Caucasian children and 80% of Black children have no lactase in their intestines. The meat, dairy and egg industries tell us: Animal products constitute 2 of the "Basic 4" food groups. The meat, dairy and egg industries don't tell us: There were originally 12 official basic food groups, before these industries applied enormous political pressure on behalf of their products. The meat, dairy, and egg industries tell us: We are well-fed only with animal products. The meat, dairy, and egg industries don't tell us: The diseases which are commonly prevented, consistently improved, and sometimes cured by a low-fat vegetarian diet include: Strokes, Heart disease, Osteoporosis, Kidney Stones, Colon cancer, Prostate cancer, Pancreatic cancer, Ovarian cancer, Cervical cancer, Stomach cancer, Endometrial cancer, Breast cancer, Hypoglycemia, Diabetes, Kidney disease, Peptic ulcers, Constipation, Hemorrhoids, Hiatal hernias, Diverticulosis, Obesity, Gallstones, Hypertension, Asthma, Salmonellosis, Trichinosis, Irritable colon syndrome Chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticide residues in the U.S. diet: Supplied by meat: 55% Supplied by dairy products: 23% Supplied by vegetables: 6% Supplied by fruits: 4% Supplied by grains: 1% Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99% Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8% Relative pesticide contamination in breast milk of meat-eating mothers compared to pesticide contamination in breast milk of vegetarian mothers: 35 times as high Percentage of male college students sterile in 1950: .5 Percentage of male college students sterile in 1978: 25 Sperm count of average American male compared to 30 years ago: Down 30% Principle reason for sterility and sperm count reduction of U.S. males: Chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides (including dioxin, DDT, etc.) Percentage of hydrocarbon pesticide residues in American diet attributable to meats, dairy products, fish and eggs: 94% The Meat Board tells us Not to be concerned about the dioxins and other pesticides in today's beef because: the quantities are so small The Meat Board doesn't want us to know: How p

skaterina

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:47:14 -0600

Spav1 - your disbelief in animal rights doesn't make you a torturer, but I'm not down with people who are dismissive of torture or cruelty, either. What's "realy dumb" about arguing that living creatures with the ability to experience fear and physical pain should be treated with more compassion than they currently receive? If you disagree, then fine, but that doesn't make it a dumb argument. Again, your defensiveness and your inability to come up with a better reason than "dumb" leads me to believe that your conscience nags you about meat and the treatment of animals in general.

Spav1

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:59:20 -0600

I just think it is realy dumb. And people can't seem to understand that my thinking that animal rights are make believe doesn't make me a torturer of animals. And babies will someday have the ability to have higher thought. Why do you think pro-lifers get so upset?

skaterina

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:42:18 -0600

Spav1 - why do you let vegans and vegetarians bother you so much? If you are so sure you are right about the status of animals as food, why are you so defensive? I never understand why people take the dietary choices and opinions of vegans and vegetarians so personally. I think that perhaps deep down, you must have at least some small reservations about meat, and you feel the need to overjustify your consumption of it. I have known people who grew up on ranches and even they don't get all worked up about vegetarians like you do. Seriously, I have never seen a vegetarian get as angry about meateaters as you seem to about vegetarians. Just like any other person, I have the right to make choices about what I consume based on my personal beliefs. Some people choose to buy at only American cars, or to boycott businesses with questionable human or civil rights practices. If I choose not to use products that result in the suffering or death of any animal, what's it to you?

guest

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:51:04 -0600

" The reason we are entitled to certain things isn't because we are alive, it is because we have a higher cognitive thought process and created the idea of bottom line rights. Animals are not capable of this." Neither are babies. Yum!

the new guest number 2

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:38:50 -0600

The new guest number 2: Again, you're using the ramblings of two wackos to define all people with similar eating habits. If this is how you roll, it's a fairly narrow-minded standpoint, basically as narrow-minded as believing everyone in the world should be vegan. What do you mean, "again"? Matty and guests made the inital comments, not me. I merely made a glib remark as I thought the juxtaposition was funny that right after what you said here comes two long ass posts lecturing us on the moralities of veganism. I'm not "defin[ing] all people" or being "narrow-minded", where did I make one disparaging comment about the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle?? Get off your high horse (before I eat it).

Spav1

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:25:43 -0600

I absolutely believe that animals have no inalienable rights. The thing about human rights is that they have been philosophized about, legislated, enumerated and put into statute and contract for hundreds of years. So what exactly are "human rights"? I think Americans would say, "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The reason we are entitled to certain things isn't because we are alive, it is because we have a higher cognitive thought process and created the idea of bottom line rights. Animals are not capable of this. I love animals, but at the end of the day, a dog or whatever is my property that I can use as I see fit. If I abuse my property, I will be punished according to laws that have been codefied by humans in order to create a society that we can all live in according to set social standards. For example, even thought I have the right to life, the right to happiness, and I am able to use drugs, if I do, I will be punished according to the law. Animal rights should be renamed to "What People Are Not Allowed to Do to Animals" because it isn't the ANIMAL who is the actor in this case, it is the person.

uremindmeofthebabe

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:38:29 -0600

Spav1: So you believe animals have no inalienable rights? The thing about rights is they exist whether the society around a person wants to acknowledge them or not (slavery, civil rights movement) and I believe they extend in some way to animals as well. I'm not a vegetarian, but I think allowing an animal to live naturally before you kill /use it isn't approaching the boundaries of animal rights fanaticism and I think there will be laws to that effect someday.

Sarah

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:32:50 -0600

the new guest number 2: Again, you're using the ramblings of two wackos to define all people with similar eating habits. If this is how you roll, it's a fairly narrow-minded standpoint, basically as narrow-minded as believing everyone in the world should be vegan. I'm a vegetarian myself (not vegan; I eat eggs and cheese), and I made this dietary choice for a variety of reasons. But I also choose to not share those unless asked because it's a personal choice, not one that I want to impose on the rest of the world. My whole family eats meat; most of my boyfriends have been meat eaters. And I don't chastise them every time they order a burger. (Nor have I ever, for that matter.) In turn, I expect to not be hassled about my eating choices. As a result, we co-exist peacefully. It's a method I highly recommend.

new and improved guest no2

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:38:56 -0600

Some vegans are annoying - that's true. For instance guest #6/8 who make it a "moral issue" and therefore lose me. However - I agree. This guy didn't lose his job because he refused to eat "sketchy-ass" hot dogs. He lost his job because he decided to sacrifice himself to the "movement". Unless he is a complete idiot, he had to know that he was going to get fired. Maybe he was aiming for a job with PETA.

Spav1

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:25:44 -0600

Animals don't have rights. The reason that it is illegal to torture animals comes from a long standing belief that they are property doing work for us and that it goes against social mores to destroy or injure something that helps you. It has totally to do with what PEOPLE think is wrong, not what animals are entitled to.

Shannon

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:42:30 -0600

in defense of vegans (and not knee-jerk, morality-laced defense), i've come into close contact with four of them in my life. by 'close contact' i mean interacting on a daily basis, pretty much. out of those four, only one of them was a stereotypical, over-the-top vegan freak. and her behavior suggested there was a lot more going on there than just not eating meat or dairy. (whether her veganism contributed to any of her weirdness, that i can't say.) i even made fauxstess cupcakes for my good friend and his wife (she converted him). and they were goood. that said, this guy so deserved the boot. there's a difference between teaching and oppressing. imagine if he'd caught one of his students eating string cheese in class or something. or if peaches could scream.

uremindmeofthebabe

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:41:35 -0600

The New Guest Number 2 - Prisoner reference?

uremindmeofthebabe

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:37:49 -0600

Spav1 - animals do have rights. That's why people go to jail for torturing them. Except the owners of industrial farms and their patron saint Paula Deen.

guest

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:18:33 -0600

Uh, people: The issue is not the morality of meat eating, which is a great and important subject (I say this as a meat eater, too). The issue is the guy was paid to do a job--teach art--and failed to do that job. That is all. Carry on.

Spav1

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:02:09 -0600

We were born with opposable thumbs for a reason. To hunt and kill animals. There are literally NO GOOD reasons to be a vegan. Animals don't have rights, therefore you can't violate them. Also, meat isn't unhealthy. What other BS reasons to people give? I don't even know? Crazy shit, like "land use reasons".

Stephen

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:02:55 -0600

I've never met one that isn't. It is like a fundamentalist religion. SAMiller: That's probably because they weren't ramming their values down their throats, and as a result you just didn't know they were vegan/vegetarian. Believe it or not, some vegans/vegetarians are sensible, normal people, who lead value-ramming-free lives. And matty is misinformed: it wasn't the vegan diet that killed that kid, it was because the parents starved him. Check your facts!

SAMiller

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 04:37:38 -0600

Not all vegans/vegetarians are fascist about their eating philosophies. I've never met one that isn't. It is like a fundamentalist religion.

the new guest number 2

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:56:52 -0600

News flash, when you promote veganism as "moral behavior", that's the point where you lose a lot of people. I can obviously think of a lot of corollaries that #6/8 would find offensive and oppressive, but I won't bother.

guest

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:07:44 -0600

Matty said about vegans: "Don't ram your values down peoples throats..." Is it "ramming values" to confront people about their morally objectionable behavior? Of course not! Society does it every day when we enforce values through laws that prohibit murder, stealing, fraud, polluting the environment, etc. And we do it in our personal relationships as well, when we ostracize liars or cheaters from our circle of friends, for example. Most people accept that some things are morally wrong, and that it is perfectly proper for society and individuals to impose legal or social penalties for moral lapses. Moral issues are usually issues that affect or harm others. If you think morality is just a matter of personal choice, then you'd have to say that putting thieves in jail or ostracizing liars from your circle of friends is ramming your values down their throats. Of course that is nonsense. Meat-eating IS a moral issue in the same way that cheating, stealing, lying, and polluting the environment are all moral issues. It is not simply a personal food preference, where you prefer salt and I prefer no-salt. Moral issues are not left "to each his own" like a choice between chocolate and vanilla ice-cream.

the new guest number 2

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:06:39 -0600

Thanks for the proselytizing, #6. You were saying, Sarah?

guest

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:59:55 -0600

Matty is showing his/her ignorance. The child in the Crown Shakur case did not die from being fed a vegan diet. All of the news stories made it clear that even the prosecutor in the case, and all the doctors and other experts who testified, agreed that the child did not die from veganism, he died from not being fed enough food, period. Since the truth was so widely publicized, Matty is either grossly ill-informed or intentionally misrepresenting the case. The child died from starvation, not veganism. Meat-eating parents also starve children to death by not feeding them enough food. And any implication that a vegan diet is not appropriate for babies and children, well that is simply false. Here is the official statement from the website of the American Dietetic Association (ADA), which heartily endorses a vegan diet for everyone. "Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits...[and] vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer." Furthermore, Dr. Frank Oski, former director of pediatrics at Johns Hopkins University said: "There is no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. It was designed for calves, it was not designed for humans, and we should all stop drinking it today, this afternoon." Dr. Spock agreed, saying, "[T]here was a time when cow's milk was considered very desirable. But research, along with clinical experience, has forced doctors and nutritionists to rethink this recommendation." And finally, The World Health Organization (WHO) says that western nations that consume a lot of meat/dairy have the highest levels of osteoporosis, which is caused by eating a lot of animal protein. WHO says: "...hip fracture rates are higher in developed countries where calcium intake is high than in developing countries where calcium intake is low...fracture risk has recently been shown to be a function of protein intake in North American women." Anyone concerned about osteoporosis should read the WHO report here: http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2004/9241546123_chap4.pdf The scientific information about the benefits of a vegan diet and the hazards of a meat and dairy diet are well known in the medical and scientific community. Too bad the scientific information is not known to many of the folks like Matty, who comment on these forums.

guest

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:16:44 -0600

"all hot dogs are sketchy-assed" Nice to see the Hot Doug's reference returns to strike fear into the hearts of vegans everywhere! FlameWar On!

Sarah

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:49:12 -0600

Wait, wait. First off, I'm not a vegan, I just play one on TV. BUT I think there needs to be a highlighted difference between someone's behavior and their dietary choices. Not all vegans/vegetarians are fascist about their eating philosophies. Just because you choose to not eat dairy/eggs/meat/Twix bars doesn't mean you are suddenly one of THOSE people who "ram your values down peoples [sic] throats." It is a shame that there are a few loudmouths out there ruining it for everyone, just how the evangelical Christians are tainting Christianity for outsiders.

matty

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:33:47 -0600

i stopped liking vegans after i heard that story about the couple who starved their baby by feeding it only vegan foods. For the same reason vegans probably hate the church or the army for prosthelytizing to people who can't make their own decisions as adults yet, i feel the same way about vegans. Don't ram your values down peoples throats - so to speak.

guest

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:21:33 -0600

Hey, art aside, it's actually kind of neat to see someone take a pretty gutsy stance on something they believe in. And really, not killing animals isn't such a bad thing to teach kids.

guest

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:11:55 -0600

Somebody's got to tell Tankboy about this guy's art. He'll never again dare say suburbanites have no culture.