24 Places and Grant Park Ain't One

it seems really hypocritical to (justly) condemn the placement of a for-profit childrens museum in grant park, but then list other city parks as possible suggestions. just sounds like they're trying to pawn it off onto some other neighborhoods green space.

I was following this extremely loosely.

What was the cited reasons he didn't want it in Grant Park again? I know the implied reasons by Daley (the alderman and his constituents are racist)...

spookhatespuppies:

People are complaining about putting it in Grant Park because park lands manifesto says it should remain "free and clear" for public use. The Children's Museum is a paid attraction, so would violate that.

"i'm guessing you've never actually been there beyond passing through at most."

Sounds like the words of someone who's never been.

really? does it sound that way? is that some pseudo/freudian/psycho-babble you're incorporating into your assumption? i've actually taken part in the "rebuilding" of that neighborhood and spent enough time there

You are sooooo right Gorilla, soon Sudo will be talking about the US being able to send a person to the moon!

Oh and although I think most Gorillas would disagree with you on this if they had your ability to talk, I still think you are a credit to your species!

See you at the O'bama meet up!

"i've actually taken part in the "rebuilding" of that neighborhood"

Yea, You, Daley and the real estate speculators in his pocket

@ Literati:

Thank you.

@ Spook:

Finally, you caught us white Obama supporters! We're only voting for him because it gives us a "Get out of being called a racist" free card. Sort of like how I use "my imaginary black friends" to explain my love of Mobb Deep and Dead Prez.

It has nothing to do with that fact I like at least some of his platform, detest the vast majority of his opponents, and have actually met the guy while volunteering for his Senate campaign.

Basically, I just want to say I've gotten coffee for a future president and led a game of touch football in a parking lot with his children and some other campaign worker's kids.

What is up with the comment form?

Let me try that again:

Wht not Englewood, because it is a war zone. But saying that having 847 crimes reported in one neighborhood in the last three weeks = bad probably makes me a racist to hipster chuck.

http://chicago.everyblock.com/crime/filter/?d_from=1/22/2008&d_to=2/21/2008&loc=neighborhoods:englewood

This list is much too short. Where's "The Moon" or "Joliet" or any other place that is not "Grant Park"?

Why not use something like Carson Pirie Scott Building that is empty, culturally significant, and endangered if not occupied? I guess it is a posiitve sign that it is at least on the list.

Condition of Englewood and the area surrounding the Brachs factory aside (which I can't personally attest to because of lack of any real experience besides passing through), you have to admit both areas are fairly far removed from the city center. While I recognize the green line runs through both areas and a project like this MIGHT help with surrounding redevelopment, I'm sure the museum wants to stay located next to other facilites that actually draw families already--like Millenium Park or the other museums.

I second ad's idea.

I can't believe anyone here is seriously arguing Englewood. Visit the 7th district on Racine and see whether anyone there would bring a kid into Englewood EVER off duty.

I hate to stereotype a neighborhood, particularly one with as much beauty and history as Englewood, but its been a war zone since the 60s, and its far, far, far from recovery (the areas north and east will have to recover first).

Anyway, east McCormick Place seemed like an intriguing idea. Its accessible mostly, plenty of parking in the soldier field lots, more-or-less on the lake front open space, and a few other things I'm not thinking of.

I like that one.

Sorry to say this, but anyone who things projects like this "rescue" bad or at risk neigborhoods are simply kidding themselves. Lets say they did put it in Englewood. What do you think would happen? The average parents from the suburbs (how likely are the predominate people that will go to this museum) are just going to load their kids in the Land Cruiser, drive to the museum, park in its state of the art underground garage (a la museum of science and industry), take the elevator up to the lobby, go through the museum in a couple of hours, eat at the McDonald's in the food court, pack back into the car, and drive home. Exactly how does that help the neighborhood again???

Don't feed the trolls people. Ignore spook.

Ad

why cater to stupid suburbanites? They are sheep, they follow the "baby on board types"

The problem is with the baby on board types with their O'bama buttons on. But again we could do this, the problem is because "the people" in Englewood continue to be seen as less than human,
the political will or resources don't get spent
If we saw them as human then we could do this easily as the resources are more than there. This includes the resources to make the immediate area safe.

Heck I bet some of these idiots commnetators are those same folks disapointed that they can't have their weddings at the Garfield Park Conservatory because its booked for the next two years!

Spook, ignorant presumption and race-baiting is a crutch for a weak mind. You are annoying at times, but I thought you were a little better than that. Sad.

Lets address your argument, though, because what you say is a serious problem: "The problem is with the baby on board types with their O'bama buttons on. But again we could do this, the problem is because "the people" in Englewood continue to be seen as less than human, the political will or resources don't get spent
If we saw them as human then we could do this easily as the resources are more than there. This includes the resources to make the immediate area safe."

That was kind of my point when I said: "What Englewood and other underserved areas need are grocery stores, library branches, modern school buildings, and more park space--not a gilded lily."

How does building a white elephant ( in a neighborhood solve these problems? Do you want to answer the question, or just throw more slanderous accusations in my general direction?

If it's mission has always been open free and clear that sounds pretty straightforward to me. I can understand the desire to put it at Grant Park and a good design could help make this less intrusive but there are other places it could go without developing on what many Chicagoans feel is our most sacred public ground along with the lake front. It has been Chicago's dedication to not developing these areas throughout our long history that has saved them for our use today and we should be grateful for that and not turn away from those values so easily. I think it would work best as an addition to the Garfield Park Conservatory Campus which is even more centrally located than the loop and would make that an even more desirable destination area of the city and possibly an actual tourist destination. Another option would be to sink Lake Shore Drive in the Grant Park area, place more green space elevated on top of it and place the museum at either the north or south end of this development. This would eliminate the lights in that area speeding up traffic and provide direct access from Grant Park to the Lake without crossing eight lanes of traffic. This would also complete the Millenium Park, Navy Pier, Museum Campus and would be quite a spectacular engineering feat, however it would be significantly more expensive, maybe they could even throw in some sort of novel transportation system for the area.

Ad- rock
I’m not bragging, but I am far from ignorant, and while I might be annoying (big smile), I will match my credentials and my process for constant intellectually growth (as opposed to stagnation) with yours any day.
But I feel you are trying to move to a more substantive ground, which I dig, so let’s do this my brotha! Let’s get all O’bama like and talk about real change!

Let’s start with your "race card" stuff. You call it playing the race card, I call it speaking truth that renders the majority (a nation of sleep walkers) very uncomfortable, especially those with types of power who are not use to being questioned about how they gained and use it today.

Just look over at AP whose mind is closed like an elevator door limited to three floors. Notice how in spite of my extensive dealings in Englewood that I listed,( three years of work in that community ), he says my experience comes from the “nightly news” when in fact that’s just how he describes Englewood from the lips of an occupying CPD force! How shallowly American in scope!

Yes Englewood needs grocery stores, libraries, loving and Socratic schools, more park space, etc. But Englewood could and should be considered for and get much more. To build a “white elephant”- as you call it -would be a major investment not just on economic terms of a public works project, but also a paradigm shift of the perception of that community, and expectations leading to a new social contract between Englewood citizens and the rest of Chicago. I'm talking new cross cultural and cross class conversations taking place. Like maybe the Baby on Board types would feel pleasured to deal with certain issues they don't have to deal with. In Englewood Maybe “Bay Bay's” Momma would have to have a conversation with her son “Bay Bay” about selling drugs on the corner across the street from the museum. Maybe the police would get more sympathy from the community if they had to send a message to “Bay Bay” and his homies that the Museum is off limits to certain elements of the community that would jeopardize the experience of a baby on board family

See I'm talking new organic conversations talking place based on the museum.
I think if such a serious effort took place the nation would have to take notice of that community, (and others like it) instead of sweeping it under the rug until “the powers that be” are ready to ship numerous poor, but good women, children and men out of that community like cattle to the “glue farm” as it gets redeveloped by developers.

In short, Englewood can absorb any large scale project and all large scale projects should be considered realistic for consideration and discussion. Remember this is the city of broad shoulders right? The only reason Englewood is not considered is because of a history of denying and marginalizing certain citizens for hundreds of years to a point were its natural and ingrained

People look at Englewood like Mars inhabited by hostile elements instead of a resilient community that in spit our hostility and neglect still holds out for hope. You feel me?

Hates Pups

Remember when Mcnulty followed Stringer into the community college and was shocked to see him taking an economics class? And what did McNulty say when he went into the then deceased Stringers home and saw all those books? He said "who was I chasing?"

Yea Herc, your Spook Rocks a Vespa McNulty would understand, Herc would not ;-)

P.S. The access to public transportation argument is a red-herring from the children's museum. The vast majority of people who visit the children's museum are from the suburbs and arrive by car, a point the museum has admitted.

Besides, lets not forget that CTA Board Chair Carole Brown serves on the museum's board. The lack of public transit in other neighborhoods rests squarely on the shoulders of Brown and Daley, who appointed her, and so Grant Park as the only possible, conceivable location becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Personally, I think of all of the locations outside downtown, Washington Park (Hyde Park) makes the most sense. Adjacent to the DuSable Museum, a short walk (or trolley ride) from the museum of science and industry, blocks from both the expressway and the red line, and very accessible for Olympic visitors.

The Indianapolis Children's Museum is an interesting example. I have to profess that I don't know Indy at all. While the study indicates the museum generated $60 million in economic development, I would be curious to know how much of that went back into the apparently low-income area the museum is located. In other words, do people just show up to the museum, go inside, and then leave when they are done without really exploring or spending money in the surrounding area?

The United Center generates a tremendous amount of money, but you don't exactly see a huge benefit to the surrounding "original" communtiy. Cops abound on game or event days, but disappear soon after. The only claimed "benefit" to that area I have seen is the complete tear-down of the surrounding public housing in favor of attempts at developing moderatley priced condos and mixed-income housing--in other words the first steps towards gentrification.

The Garfield Conservatory is another example. The Conservatory itself is beautiful, but you don't exactly see families going around the corner, or outside of the park itself, to grab lunch or take a stroll after they have finished. The Garfield Park area is starting to revive (and maybe in large part to how the conservatory has been developed), but I'm interested to see what path the revitilization takes. Raising property values and gentrifying an area should not be the ultimate goal. The focus instead, in my opinion, should be on the creation of affordable and stable neighborhoods.

My only point is that a project like this is not a magic bullet for an area. These type of projects often just become islands of prosperity in an otherwise still underserved community. Or, if successful enough, they spurn complete redevelopment and gentrification (uptown, wicker park, and cabrini green come to mind) which just drives out the original community eventually.

Indeed Ad, no magic bullets except honest real sincere, well thought out conversations at every level.

Now excuse me for being the internet Troll, but so I needed a watch today and guess were I got it? Macy's!!!!
Yea I paid more than I wanted too for it( nothing bling bling, just your standard Swiss Army with a leather/ wool or cotton band, but it sure felt good buying it from MACY'S even though I checked Sears first.

Blah blah blah white privilege blah blah hipsters blah blah ghetto. I agree Englewood isn't a solution.

Why can't we get serious about the Carson Pirie Scott building, because that's a goddamn great suggestion. We can save an old building with historic significance AND the children's museum will get it's loop location.

For points on Chicagoist? Points with who? Nobody is stupid enough to think you drawing graffiti in the ghetto is worth something, and there sure as hell ain't no rain forests in Englewood!

Answer the questions or forever hold your peace knucklehead. Where is this Englewood that you visited in your liberal fantasy? Because the one in Chicago would have eaten you alive.

Well, this comment section devolved into a massive clusterfuck full of racial connotations for some reason or another. Who wants lemonade?

@Spook:

I said I just looked like Herc. But I drink like McNulty. And I'm crazy like Prezbo.

I'm complicated.

And with your magical mural project, Clay Davis does seem to come into focus now.

Spook I love the wire refrences, but Englewood doesnt cut it as a location for the childrens museum. Englewood may have bottomed out but its a long climb back to respectability for this nieghborhood.