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Varut Subchareon, 19, is facing felony charges after police caught him spray painting in Roscoe Village. Subchareon then told police of approximately 20 other tags he'd sprayed in the neighborhood, including one on Park District property. Police say the tags arent' gang related but all look exactly the same. He's been charged with criminal damage to state-supported property.
This comes just days after a 24-year-old man was sentenced to two years in prison for vandalizing CTA cars. Nelson Cruz was arrested in December for spray-painting a El car in Forest Park. [Trib, CTA, photo by Chloeloe]
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They should cut his arms off.
Fuck Daley. Get Up.
Is that the one in the alley behind Piece?
What does Daley have to do with this?
Daley is the one that made it a felony if you get caught painting. Which makes Chicago the worst city in the nation to paint in. Are graffiti artists in the same catagory as rapist and killers?
And yes... that is the piece behind Piece on North ave. artist is TipToe
Screw the taggers. Calling it "art" doesn't really do a lot for the owners of the property they deface. Of course, if one of them should fall and break an ankle during the course of making their "art," I'm sure they'd turn around and sue the homeowner.
I wish Chicago had more Graffiti not necessarily tagging per say, but real genuine NYC graffiti.
Chicago needs more public art- which is graffiti- all over the place. And of course Daley would not allow it
That picture is misleading. This isn't a Bansky-like individual probably and by putting up that pic you are framing this as like a "freedom of expression" thing when really, 'ol boy was prolly putting up his initials or something.
And, what an idiot to admitting to the 20 other tags. What, does he have DREW PETERSON'S attorney? Why wouldn't he just say that someone else might have copied them/he didn't know.
Make an example of these vandals. Hit them as hard as possible under the law. Self-centered pricks who don't understand the concept of property or clean-up costs.
artillery do you own property or a car? i'll stop by tonight and paint my family crest on it. then we'll see how you feel about taggers.
"I wish Chicago had more Graffiti not necessarily tagging per say, but real genuine NYC graffiti."
It did. It was effing everywhere in the early 90s. No more.
Seriously, i think the penalty should fit the crime and this does not.
Also you don't people know what "felony" means for the rest of your life. It means no job and being labled a social parriah forever.
I wouldn't wish that on a 19 year old kid.
I heard there are some people that have been tagging this city for 20 years...
(and I have never been caught)
solution seems pretty simple to me - if you want to spraypaint a wall, you should own that wall. it's vandalism otherwise, and to hide behind some kind of 'artwork' defense is a 100% bs/false entitlement claim.
"graffiti artist" is an oxymoron btw
purgs50 has exactly the right idea.
Also have the CTA move the third rail from the inside of the track to the outside where there's a building right next to the tracks.
Nothing smells better than fried taggers!
i think prosecuting taggers with more venom that rapists and killers says alot about our fair city.
the reluctant adult part of me (the same part that thinks the Holy Name dipshits are just that) understands the criminal destruction of property thing, and the need for penalties and consequences and controlling gang activity, etc., etc.. but if i'm being honest here, i &hearts graf. i do. it's one of the things i think makes cities beautiful. when i see a gorgeous, colorful tag from the el on my commute, it makes my day. no, i do not know why.
getting old is hell.
go ahead curmudgeons - let me have it.
yes! to matty. felony? that's crazy. no job, no voting, all sorts of shit down the pipeline. make it hardcore if you want ... big misdemeanor with *nearly* a year in jail (i think over a year, you go to prison?) if you want to get big time crazy.
but aren't our jails full enough with people who are prisoners of the war we're losing on drugs? i'm not condoning ruining personal property, but there's got to be a constructive way to handle this problem.
I agree that there are a lot of bullshit, gangbanger, and all-around bad writers in Chicago.
But there is a vibrant streetart scene here that involves much more than someone's name on your garage door.
@artillery50
Give me a fucking break--the majority of tagging is not art. Most of it more closely resembles the scribblings of a three-year old...
It detracts from the quality of life and the aesthetics of neighborhoods (i.e. broken window syndrome), and is no different than any other forms of vandalism. Furthermore, it costs the taxpayers millions of dollars each year in clean-up costs. How would you like it if somebody tagged your home or business--something for which you worked hard and made sacrifices, all in the name of self-expression?
If the threat of serious jail time and a felony on one's record is what it takes to deter these assholes, then by all means. This will probably resonate with you more soundly once you grow up and have to actually work for the things you now take for granted...
We can debate whether tagging is cool or destructive all we want but if you think it's worthy of a felony you're !@#$ing crazy.
Felony? Who cares? These people are adults with critical thinking skills, and if they don't want to face the charge, don't engage in such anti-social behavior that costs other people money.
Fuck 'em all. Yeah, I'm hardhearted, but people need to follow the law. Maybe a few people were made examples, that might help, but I am content with merely giving a good kick in the ass to the handful of vandals the cops actually nab.
One problem with our society is that we are too forgiving of self-centered assholes who think the word stops at their belly buttons. We live in a society, people, not a bunch of private clubs.
these punks need to be punished but their young lives shouldn't be ruined. however, if they have a history of criminal behavior then the book should totally be thrown at them.
i gotta admit, though, that i kinda like the look of real graffiti in the streets sometimes. it gives a gritty, urban look that has been lost over the years.
Smussy:
In IL, felons can vote upon release from prison.
I don't know what punishment, if any, would actually work as a deterrent, but a 2 year jail sentence just costs taxpayers more money. Some graffiti is artistic, most of it is crap, all of it is destructive to property. But it's a non-violent crime and shouldn't be a felony.
the majority of people who are going to get charged with these felonies are stupid kids with some time on their hands who had th urge to do something "cool" (NOTE QUOTES!), dangerous and subversive.
i don't know about the rest of you high and mighty dweebs, but i certainly spent some of my high school and college years doing the same damn things for the same damn reasons.
some of what i did may have been wrong, damaging and deserving of punishment, but none of it was deserving of making me a lifelong felon.
if prosecuting these kids with felonies actually worked as a deterrent, it would be worth it. but it doesn't work that way, people. but then again, if you really feel like gumming up the criminal court system some more, super for you.
petey pants tagging looks cool as long as it's not on your shit. move to harlem if u dig it that much. again they should literally cut this dude's arms off.
who are you to say what's art and what isn't? don't allow big brother to persuade you so much.
fyi: "making "examples" of a couple writers will NOT deter most other writers.
celery -
it WAS wrong, not may have been
prosecuting them as a felony will work as a deterrent as soon as they are arrested at a higher rate. i believe that criminologists point to a 30% arrest rate for it to become a deterrent.
if you want graffiti, move to detroit.
also, your contrast to the pursuing of rapists and killers has got to be one of the dumbest things i've read on this board, and that is saying something given the things that spook was writing a few days ago.
I think a felony is a bit harsh. But I'll be honest: If I caught somebody vandalizing (and that's what it is) my property, I'd art all over their skull.
We can debate whether tagging is cool or destructive all we want but if you think it's worthy of a felony you're !@#$ing crazy.
Seriously,
Fuck the debate about what 'tagging' is, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. How much does it cost us to keep a kid in prison for 2 years? I guarantee it's more than the cost of re-painting something.
Its a felony because of the amount of damage he caused. Its not just one tag he did 20 others, all cost a couple hundred dolars to clean up so the cost of this so called artist adds up quick.
Our society has always had a rather weird stance towards grafitti. If it's Banksy or Basquiat (back in the day), we tend to consider it art. If it's a young kid trying to learn can control by throwing up shit tags, we consider him a vandal. Not saying this stance is right or wrong, but I do think the city benefits from grafitti when it is done well in an appropriate place. In a perfect world, serious grafitti artists would be given legal public wall space around the city. There not, so they often resort to hitting whatever they can get away with. Raising this to the level of a felony, however, is ridiculous. Fine the hell out of them if you want and require them to pay restitution, but don't saddle them with this level of a criminal record.
who are you to say what's art and what isn't? don't allow big brother to persuade you so much.
You can paint the Mona Lisa on my garage, but if you don't have my permission, it's still vandalism. I can't in good conscience say that the aforementioned taggers in this post deserved to be charged with felonies, but from this point forward? Taggers ye be warned--get caught and you will be charged with a felony.
Seems pretty simple to me, and if that's not enough to deter you, then you probably don't care much about your future anyway...
jimbo, i fail to see how my comparison was dumb. i've been watching kids get shot up the last couple of weeks and would like to be assured that every available policeman is working on that, and not on the overzealous kid with the spray paint, thank you. so i appreciate your desire to insult me, but get a grip on yourself there before you start getting unnecessarily nasty.
and by the way - if going after the killers from the past couple of weeks means going after gang grafitti, cool.
And you're right - when I was sixteen, smoking pot, jumping off bridges and doing donuts in someone's cornfield, i was wrong. i just don't think i was wrong enough for a lifetime.
plus, i spend my weekends beautifying my neighborhood through neighborhood gardening projects. would i have turned into a productive citizen if i sat two years for any of my teen antics? probably not.
i'm sorry - kids need a little room to fuck up. not a lot, just a little. they should be made to scrub up/replace their work. wanna deter a kid from this stuff? MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT.
and no thank you - i won't be moving to detroit anytime soon. their potholes are worse than ours.
For the last time: It is not art if you paint on my property, or the public's property, without my permission. Christ, why is that so hard to understand?
By all means, have an art show on your own property--your walls, your garage, your car, your limbs, whatever the hell you want. Nothing is stopping you.
This issue has nothing to with art. I think some of these taggers have serious talent. But I think they are criminals, too.
and pinko, few - if any - sixteen year olds i know care about their future.
Shucks, Chicagoist sure has gotten all "law and orderly" since Them Kids done invaded that dar church, I reckon!
Maybe yall should form some sort of,
Chicago Graffiti Posse! - "Posse" in this case is said like the cool outlaw played by Ben Foster- (who should not have been killed damn it!) said it in the movie 3:15 Train to Yuma!
Pinkerton Agent Matty,
you're right because during the 1980’s Ronald Reagan cut art, gym, music,and lunch programs in public schools. Chicago was especially hard hit along with The NYC.
Graffiti then increased, and hip how blow-up as an alternative form of music along with break dancing-where a young Spook figured in prominently as a leader, son!
But on the whole, children got fatter and the drop-out rate soured to an all time high, along with youth crime, not to mention inner city poverty.
Ahhhh The Gipper!
Fed up is exactly right. When the level of damage rises to a certain amount, it is a felony. If you want to remove tagging, as opposed to just painting over it, you quickly approach those amounts.
Frankly, people who love tagging so much should donate their garage doors. That's fine. That's your business. I don't want my garage door to look janky because I have to paint over some moron's tag.
And yes, celerysalt, I did act out when I was younger. Some of what I did was felonious. I did not get caught, thank God. And so it goes. Stop tagging.
The story says the man was only charged for one of the graffiti incidents, the Park District building. Apparently that's a felony -- "criminal damage to state-supported property". So if he had stuck to garage doors the charge might have been less.
Spook, Celery, and all the rest. See post 35. See it every time you thing you are going to type anything other than "poor kid. Dumb move."
i don't dispute any of that. you're absolutely right!
i'm just saying: felony? maybe not so much.
poor kid. dumb move.
are you guys getting your lynch mob together to go after the obama art guy?
what's interesting is that in this rag tag band of commenters, all with varying political views and level of expression, it seems that a *majority* consensus has cropped up ...
graffiti is wrong and should be a crime, but you shouldn't be saddled with a felony for it or sit in jail for a shitload of time. can we get this message over to daley?
Smussy,
I am not sure that the consensus is that a felony is too harsh. If you do $2000 of damage to property, whether with a spray can or a brick, that is a felony. I would be interested to see people actually address THAT issue.
It takes a very specific worldview to blame Daley for cleaning up the city by removing grafitti and trying to deter grafitti. It seems frankly naive and ignorant of the experiences in other cities. Detroit is an apt comparison to Chicago. Chicago could have become Detroit, but it has not. Daleys played a big part in that. Of course, they also played a big part in the city's segregation, the failure of public housing, and a number of other serious issues. However, to criticize for grafitti removal just seems silly.
and pinko, few - if any - sixteen year olds i know care about their future.
I was hardly a boy scout throughout my high school and college years either, and have spent more than a night in a jail cell as evidence. But I also would have thought twice about half the shit I pulled were the very real possibility of a felony staring me in the face.
Where do you think a sixteen- or nineteen-year-old is going to get several thousand dollars to pay for graffiti clean-up costs? Are you going to garnish his McJob wages for half his life? Are you going to put him behind the wheel of one of the GraffitiBlasters trucks as community service? I'm in my thirties, college-educated and gainfully employed, and still wouldn't be able to raise that kind of cash easily...
Put the word out that tagging is a felony, with television and print campaigns, if necessary. That way when a kid gets caught, he can't cry that he didn't know. If you know that tagging is a felony but go ahead and do it anyway, than you deserve what you get as far as I'm concerned....
"He ran and we caught him," said Lt. John Willner of the Belmont District's community policing office" (from the Trib).
Poor kid? A poor kid is someone who does something wrong without realizing it and gets in trouble. He's 19, he knows it's illegal, hence his running. I'm not saying lock him up and throw away the key but jesus. At what age are people supposed to be held responsible for their own actions??
So then, as the *Majority* has ruled
with You writing the decision, Ms. Antonin Smussy-Scalia, please answer JoeM500's question.
Is the Posse/Lynch Mob which includes the "Catholic on the Cardinal's Lawn St. Pats Block Party Theology on Tap Social Justice Committee" going to lynch the " O’bama art guy " up at high noon?
Or does he get a pass because that is considered what is “art”, as oppossed to what aint "art"?
My back window literally looks down on this tag. I get woken up by the Mexican kitchen staff taking out the trash in the back alley of piece all the time.
And while this is annoying, its the people who "etch" the windows in my hood with acid I hate. And I've caught two kids tagging in my alley... with a potato launched at 90 mph with compressed air gun.
Enjoy the welts and bruises, assheads.
Its a felony because of the amount of damage he caused. Its not just one tag he did 20 others, all cost a couple hundred dolars to clean up so the cost of this so called artist adds up quick.
The average cost to taxpayers for keeping a person in prison* for a year is $22,650.00 so 2 years is $45,300.00
Do the math Fed. So much for common sense.
How 'bout we let him do an ass-load of community service and pay a hefty fine and you guys let the rest of us have our tax money go to better things.........like keeping it for one.
I would rather see the CTA painter mopping CTA stations then sitting in a prison learning how to be an actual threat to society.
*sourced from an article in conservative bastion: National Review and that figure's for 2001 and, you know........inflation baby!
Spook: I fail to understand why you apparently think it is OK for certain people to break the law, but not others. We are supposed to a country of laws, not men, after all. We are all supposed to be equal under the law. Do you not believe this?
I don't remember the Obama art guy, but I call for punishment for all vandals.
Chicago should consider legit graffiti licenses.
There are a large portion of people who consider graffiti crap, and a large portion that consider graffiti art/beauty. Taggers will not and should not have the right to tag with out facing harsh consequence.
If this was a black gang member graffitiing a gang sign that included a few swear words, or offensive imagery there would be a much different tone on this board.
We can't let one "artist" off easy, and punish the others for defacing public and private property. I agree some graffiti is true art that can be appreciated by many, but most graffiti is crap that I don't want to see lining the streets.
The city needs to take a fresh look at how they will handle situations like these.
Making a felony out of tagging inspires precisely the kind of anti-establishment thinking that moves one to tag in the first place. If the only kind of ethics you understand is the ethics of consequences I don't think you would have ever been moved to tag in the first place. I'm not saying these kids should be admired but you do have to recognize that they have motives beyond simply defacing property for the fun of it.
Long as you are consistent Matilda, which you are.
JoelM500 The O’bama guy swings from the neck too Yeaaaa!
p.s I hope you speak for the rest of the court Matilda cause I think our very own Margaret sorta liked the O'bama art guy!
Spook, isn't the bell ringing for LD English? You're gonna be late.
Celery Salt! God afermoon, what did you say, I can's read, but nice to see you honey!
what brought you out? Hope it wasn't some thing I said?
I dig seeing graffiti on freight trains. That should be allowed.
"Chicago should consider legit graffiti licenses."
Um... no. Eat a dick.
Navin: Do you apply such a cost-benefit analysis to all punishments for all crimes, or just this one? I am not saying you are evil for doing so, only that your logic, taken to its extreme, would require a wholesale change in how we determine punishments.
Frankly, I think such an approach is more suited to nonviolent drug offenders, who I think are suffering mainly from medical problems and mental weaknesses, but that's just me.
BUT: I think you fail to factor in the benefit of society of locking certain people up, whether is for deterance or to simply get some people off the street, or a combination of those factors. Those factors don't seem so easily to calculate.
Making a felony out of tagging inspires precisely the kind of anti-establishment thinking that moves one to tag in the first place. If the only kind of ethics you understand is the ethics of consequences I don't think you would have ever been moved to tag in the first place.
That's a tautology. If by making it a felony (stupid, I agree) you inspire them to tag, then they're inspired by the thrill of defying the law meaning that taggers would want the harsher punishment since it gives their craft the meaning.
But wait a sec, if this were the case, then graffiti would have been less common before the laws were tightened which, afaik, isn't at all the case.
(that should have read "want the threat of harsher punishment" since I doubt they want to be paint martyrs or some such thing.)
Yall folks is making me sick!
Seriously yall! Stop with the Midwest hick routine! That’s the problem, Chicago is too *&%$ parochial!
What’s next, a ban on the New York Times for encouraging kids to “break the law” because they wrote an amazing article with pictures of some amazing graffiti art in New York and in Europe? Heck they probably were too afraid to come to Chicago cause of yall!
Just because the “Catholics on the Cardinal's
green perfect Lawn St. Pats Block Club Party Theology on Bud Lite Beer Tap Social Justice Committee" wants to impose Literacy Tests, are we gonna let them define what is art? Next thing you know art will be those paint by the number pictures on their grand mammy’s wall!
Matilda where ya at?
What is this Iowa?
Bronto Represent! What's Hood baby, What's Hood?
I love the graffiti on freight trains too!
Don't leave a Spook hanging yall!
Bronto sez: "I dig seeing graffiti on freight trains. That should be allowed."
You know what, that's a great logical position, and the use of the verb "dig" really makes it counter-cultural and fresh. Really. If you like it, it should be allowed. Makes things pretty simple.
Let's take it to the extreme:
I would like to have the chance to throw a brick at least one corrupt civic or business leader, or city worker, in Chicago everyday--not in the head, just in the knee, just for fun and revenge--and without punishment. Mother may I?
Seriously yall! Stop with the Midwest hick routine! That’s the problem, Chicago is too *&%$ parochial!
Can we all agree not to feed the troll?
I treat all of spook's comments now like the purple boxed ads on Chicagoist... I just sort of pretend they're not there.
I didn't mind tagging until I bought my first home a few years ago. About 3 weeks into owning it, some fuckface tagged the side of my house. I called graffitti busters, who came over, and powerwashed it off...along with a few layers of my 102 year old brick. So, now I have the tag basically etched into the side of my house. Thanks alot, fucker.
If I would have caught him, I would've beaten him within an inch of his life. If I catch anyone pulling that shit, they will get a free trip to the hospital.
I agree that felony charges are a bit harsh, but maybe one of these "artists' will think twice about tagging private property. I don't mind bridges, train cars, etc, but people's homes, fences and so on should carry a hefty punishment.
Uh, Mark, bridges and train cars are owned by someone, too--either a company (freight trains, for instance) or you and me and everyone else who pays taxes in a particular area. I think you need to look just a bit more outside yourself on this issue, despite your relatively recent englightenment.
Navin: Do you apply such a cost-benefit analysis to all punishments for all crimes, or just this one? I am not saying you are evil for doing so, only that your logic, taken to its extreme, would require a wholesale change in how we determine punishments.
I suppose if I did it would make your criticism of my position much more credible. As you very well know, I don't. If anything my reasoning (punishment should fit the crime) suggests taking a unique approach to each crime and offender.
Frankly, I think such an approach is more suited to nonviolent drug offenders, who I think are suffering mainly from medical problems and mental weaknesses, but that's just me.
I've long thought the same, unlike you, I guess I consider graffiti to be a petty crime unworthy of prison time too.
BUT: I think you fail to factor in the benefit of society of locking certain people up, whether is for deterance or to simply get some people off the street, or a combination of those factors. Those factors don't seem so easily to calculate.
No,
I see no benefit in locking these kids up, far from it. In fact two years in prison will more likely make some petty graffiti kid more anti-social and prone to serious criminal behavior then anything. Seriously if you can somehow show how that these kids are more dangerous to human citizens than they are to some alley wall, a newspaper box or a dumpster then maybe I'll change my mind.
If it is "legit" art, maybe buy a wall...and then paint it and then it's called a "mural" and it is anti-broken windows theory.
Just like Pacey did for Joey. No one ever accused Joey Potter of graffiti.
Then Navin, what does one do when faced with a tagger/artist/whatever who caused thousands of dollars of damage? How does one 1) get that money back; and 2) deter that person, and perhaps ohters, from vandalising anymore?
I don't think vanadalism is an unserious crime. It affects people's pocketbooks--people who, in many cases, can barely afford to own property in this city--and creates far more eyesores than masterpieces, diminishing the appeal of living in a city.
Tell me your wonderful, realistic solution and I'll listen.
celery, your point about rapists and murders is poor because you want to police one thing but not another. your average cop does not go out one morning and say to himself, "damn, i'm going to go prevent some murders today," nor should he. he is out to enforce the law - whatever it may be, whether it's theft, battery, vandalism, etc. rationalizing one crime by saying that another might be taking place, is in fact dumb.
Can this comment section make it to 100? Let's find out...
- Gentrification is awesome.
- Todd Stroger should run for governor.
- The Cubs suck.
- Your favorite band is a bunch of sell outs.
- There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate two of them.
That should do it...
Then Navin, what does one do when faced with a tagger/artist/whatever who caused thousands of dollars of damage? How does one 1) get that money back; and 2) deter that person, and perhaps ohters, from vandalising anymore?
1)
Oh Matilda, but you see your solution doesn't get that person's money back either. In fact yours costs us much more money as I easily pointed out earlier. My solution puts them to work rather then putting them in a cell, where they will probably become more dangerous to society once they're released......then we spend even more money and it never ends. Oh and I almost forgot insurance
2)
Fines and many hours of work should deter people. I imagine 90% of kids 'tagging' or whatever don't even know what the punishment is anyway. I doubt they're tagging because they know it's not a felony. Anyway you're never going to get me to worship at the holy altar of property when it comes to this. Nothing you can say is going to convince me that writing on a wall is prison worthy.
I don't think vanadalism is an unserious crime. It affects people's pocketbooks--people who, in many cases, can barely afford to own property in this city--and creates far more eyesores than masterpieces, diminishing the appeal of living in a city.
Yup, it's so serious that I'm sure most citizens would prefer the cops devote more time to its prevention then say...........robbery?
Please no histrionics o.k?
@plum:
don't forget cupcakes! something about cupcakes and tattoos, please.
Nothing you can say is going to convince me that writing on a wall is prison worthy.
I'd agree, generally. Until somebody does it dozens of times. Then we start getting into territory where it does become prison-worthy. It's not unlike shoplifting: Give yourself a five-finger discount once or twice? Ehh, you're probably just a wayward youth... whatever, here's some probation. Do it a hundred times? You're a criminal and you're going to jail. Period. Sorry.
Navin: Of course more people would prefer that cops, given their limited time, catch violent offenders. But that doesn't mean people are willing to shrug off quality-of-life issues or property damage either.
And I fail to see how your solution ensures that more than just token amounts of restitution goes to victims. As for insurance, you forget to include the cost of deductables and possible increases in insurance rates, especially if a neighborhood has many similar claims.
You also assume the people who are doing the vandalism haven't been socialized badly already. Sure, prison might make it worse, but so what--do we not punish relatively minor crimes because people might come out bad? I realize the danger to society--trust me, I've researched this issue in depth--but I also realize the value of punishing offenders.
And this is more than just writing on the wall. This is property damage. Like it or not, property does hold a holy place in American civic culture. Good luck changing that reality.
Do you own property, Navin? If you do, why not let people make write on your walls. I don't own property, but I realize the value of private and public property.
Sometimes punishment does cost more than the crime. That is part of life, I think. That applies to many, many crimes--auto theft, for instance. Or simple battery, perhaps. Or burglary. Yet we must punish people, and eat the costs, in order to show that people are not above the law.
As part of this equation:
Let’s not consider the always decreasing funds for classroom artistic programs in public school,
Let’s not consider the lack of availability of After School Programs,
Let’s not consider the fact that the only parks with FREE After School Programs are those in
Mt. Greenwood, Bridgeport, and Lincoln Park,
Let’s not include the fact that the wind didn’t bend those steel basket polls in school yards, The City of Chicago did so “gang members” can’t play basket ball there,
Let's not consider the fact that the nice shinny new YMCA in Logan Square sits half empty because it’s too #$*&% expensive for poor folks and their kids,
No, let us spend our time ranting about kids spray painting on walls and debate the merits of felony punishments as oppose to regular punishment. Because kids spray painting is a B.F.D!
And as we approach summer vacation, if some one is stupid enough to write a post
about the above issues, including the fact the CPS cut summer school classes again, the only commentator will be Spook ranting about why aint no body protesting!
Sorry, didn’t mean to disturb you, carry on, and go cubs!
@Celerysalt:
I'm not stepping in that again.
In an effort to diffuse bitterness and anger, here is a great piece from This American Life on the efforts of the NYPD to crack down on graffiti writers.
i'm proud to say that i started this.
Navin: Of course more people would prefer that cops, given their limited time, catch violent offenders. But that doesn't mean people are willing to shrug off quality-of-life issues or property damage either.
Certainly not, but equating those issues with other more serious crimes is ridiculous.
And I fail to see how your solution ensures that more than just token amounts of restitution goes to victims. As for insurance, you forget to include the cost of deductables and possible increases in insurance rates, especially if a neighborhood has many similar claims.
Your forgot that your solution offers no significant amounts either unless the vengeance factor is enough to give you your kicks.
You also assume the people who are doing the vandalism haven't been socialized badly already. Sure, prison might make it worse, but so what--do we not punish relatively minor crimes because people might come out bad? I realize the danger to society--trust me, I've researched this issue in depth--but I also realize the value of punishing offenders.
Weird I don't recall ever saying that they shouldn't be punished just that they shouldn't be put in prison for years at a time. I know it helps your argument to ignore that fact but please don't if you don't mind.
And this is more than just writing on the wall. This is property damage. Like it or not, property does hold a holy place in American civic culture. Good luck changing that reality.
So basically: Reality sucks, I have a broken moral compass, screw you.
Do you own property, Navin? If you do, why not let people make write on your walls. I don't own property, but I realize the value of private and public property.
Again you suggest that any alternative punishment to your draconian prison time solution can only mean acceptance. That's a pretty sad strawman.
Sometimes punishment does cost more than the crime. That is part of life, I think. That applies to many, many crimes--auto theft, for instance. Or simple battery, perhaps. Or burglary. Yet we must punish people, and eat the costs, in order to show that people are not above the law.
Again you're not so subtly implying that anything short of prison time's not a punishment at all. Hey the punishment doesn't fit the crime for in many instances right? But we must punish people huh? You've got a creepy vision of justice.
I'd agree, generally. Until somebody does it dozens of times. Then we start getting into territory where it does become prison-worthy. It's not unlike shoplifting: Give yourself a five-finger discount once or twice? Ehh, you're probably just a wayward youth... whatever, here's some probation. Do it a hundred times? You're a criminal and you're going to jail. Period. Sorry.
Yeah Rev,
I didn't think it needed to said that the offender's record should be taken into consideration when considering punishment.
For all the hand-wringing, this is a pretty open and shut case. The statute is simple, and I believe, appropriate: If you do damage property in an amount at or above certain cost threshold, you're going to PMITA prison, period. In my mind, doing $5000 worth of damage to buildings with spraypaint is virtually no different than torching a $5000 car: In both cases, people are equally victimized.
Is that harsh? Maybe. But there's no arguing that a threshold between "severe enough for <insert punishment here>" and "severe enough for prison" does exist... the only question is whether this particular person crossed it. And I think it's pretty clear that he did.
Thanks groggy
You toss in my face a story about an enlightened city with cultural understanding, appreciation and depth. Also with a progressive Mayor, compared to what ever this dictator’s name is and I’m supposed to be assuaged?
Like Phil from the Sopranos said “where done hear”
But before I leave this table, here is an interesting article that you might be interested in about Street Art, yes Freaking Graffiti in New York and Europe.
Not that these morons will respect it because it aint written in the Red- Stupid- Red- Eye.
Spook out!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/arts/design/14graf.html
Navin: Remember, this issue about a people who either did multiple acts of vandalism costing significant amounts of damage, or vandalized public property, a crime that, I think, is worth a more severe penalty. I think a few years is prison is not too much to ask, nor even approached a draconian punishment (who is being dramatic now, Navin?).
Seriously, if you are of age to be charged as an adult, and you do not know this type of action is wrong--really, how hard is that too figure out?--I have no pity for you.
I find it amusing that you accuse me of twisting my words but you do the same. I never implied "anything short of prison time's not a punishment at all," but it is fun to think I did, isn't it? I just happen to believe vandalism, especially repeated instances of such, is a more serious problem than you do.
I didn't think it needed to said that the offender's record should be taken into consideration when considering punishment.
Well yeah, that's obvious. But that's not what I'm getting at: If it can be proven that you committed shoplifting not just once or twice, but a dozen times, that completely changes the ballgame. That's what happened with Mr. Subchareon, and I fail to understand what all the outrage is about in this case.
@Spook
I know that you own a condo, whereby the exterior walls are commonly owned by the condo association, but for the sake of argument...
Would you be so enlightened and understanding of graffiti artists if you owned a house and they tagged the front of it?
Think about that for a moment, and then answer honestly...
Um, hi Spook.
Did you listen to the TAL story or not? It actually is about how New York City wants to crack down on graffiti and street art... not how the police force is all "enlightened" and "understanding" and bless the spray cans of graffiti artists.
Are you a former Gothamist, Spook? Do you speak from experience? I'm curious because I've lived in Harlem and Brooklyn, and though I saw graffiti where I lived, I'd never have called it street art. Sure, street art exists in NYC, but I still saw plenty of NYPD cracking down on kids with cans.
@Matilda among others-
This thread is obviously spinning on way too long, but I'd like to say something in defense, if I may. Its interesting that you, among other people assume that Artillery606 and the other graffiti defenders here are:
Not property owners
Young people
Do not have steady jobs
Do not have respect for the city/property/law
Just because someone doesn't fit into your narrow model of a citizen doesn't mean ANY of the above are true. For example, I can tell you that Artillery606 has a great and respectable job, is an old fart, and is not on part with rapists and other felony offenders.
Many graffiti artists have lucrative (read respectable) gallery careers among other things. They do way more art than you can imagine. Maybe they do stuff just as great as your precious Banksy you saw in your Urban Outfitters graf book. You're all so quick to assume a tag is just a scribble from a 14 year old lame brain.
People think that their "property rights" are so holy. Well for all of us who feel their neighborhoods, cities, blocks, universe has been taken over by 35 year old white property owners, some of us are trying to take it back.
So much of graffiti is about reclaiming space. Ever considered why some people REALLY might do it?
People think that their "property rights" are so holy. Well for all of us who feel their neighborhoods, cities, blocks, universe has been taken over by 35 year old white property owners, some of us are trying to take it back.
That's hilarious! Which block do you have rights to deface? Seriously!
And tell me whether these taggers who, according to you, are exactly the people from whom you're reclaiming the neighborhood (older, employed, landed gentry), get the permission of the Puerto Rican grandmother that's lived on the block for thirty years. They do, right? They're collaberating on taking back the neighborhood? The tagger just forgot to ask permission from my elderly next door neighbor before defacing her garage.
She'll be thrilled to know it was to prevent the wrong element from moving in.
Alright, TIA...
I'm younger than the age you give, I rent, I've lived in the same three block area for a decade, and I'm an experimental musician (though not by trade as I need steady employment and drones do not the bills pay).
So, what may I deface? Please be specific.
Groggy
Cause you've lived in Harlem and Brooklyn, I have a duty to respond.
My beef is that no one bothered to even question the art and political context and foundation of graffiti, which is HUGE!
I'm not going to get into the importance of this because hopefully having lived in Harlem and Brooklyn, You understand how the three are enter twined.
If you give police and the courts the power to act like Nazis with graffiti, the repercussions will be felt on Chicago’s small but hopefully growing street art movement found in communities of color, which young people are starting to take up and make it organic! Not to mention the increased pressure on the already busting at the seams juvenile judicial system. And you wanna protest Cook County? The run the courts and the over crowded detention center
This is lunacy!
Come on Good people, Graffiti has a rich history, it aint like some old drunk pissing on your wood porch!
Second did you miss what I said about After School Programs and Arts Related Education? Maybe if we didn’t let this "mayor" strip poor and working schools and communities of all after school and weekend recreation programs and classroom based arts programs, then kids wouldn’t stray paint all over your buildings! Come on kids can't even go play ball at thir parks any more! You gotta rent out the gym! Heck I took art classes at the part for free as a kid!
And Pinko. It happens to my building all the time and as the Ghetto condo board president I call 311 and it’s removed with in two or three days. But I wish we had a climate were some one would do a mural on the side of our building with out the fear of being shot!
But honestly Pinko it aint a big deal
Well for all of us who feel their neighborhoods, cities, blocks, universe has been taken over by 35 year old white property owners, some of us are trying to take it back.
So much of graffiti is about reclaiming space. Ever considered why some people REALLY might do it?
God, where do I even start with this trainwreck of a thought? Since when is public or private property yours to even take back? Is it yours because you grew up on that street? Is it yours because you moved to that edgy and trendy neighborhood straight out of college? Is it yours because your gang controls the drug traffic at that intersection?
Why not just take a crap or piss wherever you feel like it to mark your territory like animals do? In fact, why not just burn entire buildings down to the ground in order to feed your birth-given sense of entitlement? Or go to your parent's house, tag their garage and start by taking back that space?
Believe it or not, one day you'll no longer be a twentysomething hipster. Rather, you'll be a thirtysomething homeowner and possibly even a parent who won't appreciate seeing gang graffiti, tagging and other forms of "street art" every time you walk out the front door.
And no, I don't buy for a second that these "artists" have lucrative jobs or own property--they'd have more respect for others if they did...
TIA: I've rarely read a bigger piece of horeshit on this blog, and believe me, I have written alot of horseshit here.
This is political? This is some revolutionary move? Spare me your cheap outrage and half-assed idealism. (By the way, I never assumed anyone was a property owner or not--and I am not one myself--I just have a respect for property rights, which is a basis of our civic system.)
I love art (and have no idea what you mean by the Urban Outfitters rambling, but hey, it must mean something to you). I would like to see way more outdoor art in Chicago--murals especially. I would be willing to pay more taxes to fund more outdoor art projects that go one with the approval of property owners.
BUT--I respect property rights. I see no justification for unauthorized art, graffiti, whatever the hell you want to call it. You do not fuck with people's property--is it hardly different than stealing if you do, as you are causing people to spend hard-earned money to fix the damage (believe it or not, but not every property owner on the North Side is insanely rich. Some, in fact, can barely make it anymore. I know more than a few.)
I don't care if the graffiti is good or crap--without permission from property owners, these artists have no right to create their art on other people's property. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that simple concept? This is a basic concept of the American system. Read up on your fucking history.
If you still want to argue, can I please scribble some designs on your coat, your desk, your TV, whatever? Sorry, you don't get to choose what design or what object houses my design. That's up to me. And you don't get to complain because it's all about reclaiming space or revolution or whatever.
By the way, the proper way to stick to the man when it comes to gentrification is to go through proper channels or hit at the people who make gentrification possible--the politicians and business leaders. Organize a protest. Back a candidate. Fight zoning decisions (yes, it can be done, even in Chicago--I've done it and help win.) Chip in for lawyers who will take up your cause (some very good, idealistic ones may even work pro bono) Unauthorized art ain't gonna accomplish shit in terms of reclaiming space or whatever bullshit euphanism you hide your weak ideas behind.
God, are you really this stupid? Please tell me you are just pretending. Seriously--this is a battle against yuppies? Wow. I mean, really, wow. Such utter stupidity.
Seriously, though, I would love for the revolutionaries you champion to do this to the wonderful building I live in (as a renter, by the way), or my neighborhood. I'd love to show these assholes some counter-revolutionary spirit of my own. As would most of my neighbors, most of whom are not evil yuppies but Chicago natives and immigrants who have worked their asses off to improve their properties, and who have little money to spend on fixing the unathorized art spray painted by selfish pricks who think they are making political statements.
You really, really need to get your head out of your ass. Freaking leftist retards--I will never understand the type. You people are so self-centered and useless. Move to San Fran already and get it over with.
Matilda, how could you insult retards like that? :)
Heeeyyyyyyy This is Awkward, '
'I see some where along the line you took the Red pill. Cool
Matilda took the easy way out with the blue pill. Now she feels safe and secure with the "in crowd"
She is their little trained pit bull attacking some teenagers writing their names on some walls- while Babylon is looted and Burned by real criminals -with out trying to go deeper and deal with educational, social structures at play, etc. There has been alot of serious scholarship on Graffiti, but she only listens to what the right wing has to say and its all black and white.
And she's having fun pretending she's making points on
George Bush's Supreme court. Matilda is a Midwest liberal, flickering in the wind like a candle. I'm sure all of us at one time wanted to be part of the "in crowd" and said things we knew were at best frivolous because we wanted to be accepted. Hopefully she will grow out of it
But you Keep reading and stay focused
Keep going against the grain. Yea its Awkward but remember Socrates drank the hemlock by choice and you don't have to do that, just keep reading and keep speaking truth to power
Sincerely,
Spook
...Or rather, keep watching Keanu Reeves movies for their cogent social analysis.
Bronto shit this one out: "I dig seeing graffiti on freight trains. That should be allowed."
Does that include covering up any markings indicating that it's hazardous cargo & what kind?
What about the weight limit marks?
Or the brake shoe types?
Or the "Do Not Hump" signs?
All of those signs are for the public's safety!
Bronto, You Are A Fucking Asshole!
Tourism Board
so do tell me what you're reading cause I'm always open to knew ideas and I do mean always. Matter of fact I see them out ;-)
I'll check back in tomorrow to see what you write because from your recent post it seems like reading isn't a high priority for you. But I might be wrong, so I will check back in to see.
Spook
One more comment to go...
I think spook sees himself as this heroic revolutionary who rails for the little guy, and will only be truly appreciated after he leaves. Like some urban Simon Bolivar.
But everyone else sees him as some homeless person off his meds arguing with a lamp post over what Engels meant by "communism" while ignoring the load he left in his own pants.
(Yep... that oughta do it.)
Simon Bolivar - he's the watch guy right?
Thanks, I'll be here all week. Tip your waitresses.
Christ, Plum, you really write some funny comments. Keep them coming. Nice use of Engels, too--the obscure one.
Though UTV made me chuckle, too.
Spook: Really, if you can't see the difference between someone who believes in property rights and the law, and someone who is just trying to fit in, you either aren't trying or you really have no sense.
Socrates? Uh, OK. Because spraying painting walls without permission in order to stick it to the man is just what the Greek philosopher would have advise. In fact, I think Plato even approved the practice somewhere in The Republic, though he saw taggers not as reality, but more like a shadow of reality. Nietszhe, of course, saw graffiti artists as the representation of the superman, and further proof of the will to power, if not the diminished need for the god concept. Satre just shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't really care, we were all dead anyway. I suppose certain figures from the Enlightment would have talked about the natural, god-given (or, creature-endowed) rights of street artists to do as they please, that no aristrocrat or artificial political system shoulds stand in the way of taggers--yet they would noted the need for taggers to acknowledge their place in a balanced society, perhaps. Hegel would have talked of the inevitable collision of the ideas held by street artists and the ideas held by property owners, and how a new reality was sure to emerge from the tension. Marx would have mumbled about the taggers eventually calcifying into a new, rigid economic class, but how, for now, they occupy spots on the forefront of the much delayed, but inevitable, urban uprising.
In any case, you are full of shit as usual. Trust me--I am full of shit, too, and can spot a fellow traveler from a mile away.
Matilda that was the best post you wrote
on this stupid subject. Seriously, keep you're heard in the sky!
Mr. Plum Plumkins! Hark? be that Ye? For I thought you pledged to ignore this Spook?
But for the record, my medicine is oatmeal stout
and I'm a "home"owner, which is why my comments were of relevance, and you sir?
And speaking of Simon Bolivar, a Marxist M.D. friend from college now visiting/observing at a progressive community hospital on a certain Nation/Island, located
198 nautical miles from Miami Florida, sent me a box of Simon Bolivar cigars a week ago in celebration of your Spook's new covert-ops mission!
And I do pledge to think of you, Plum Plum Plum Plumkins as I smoke one of these delectables (now continuing to get oily in the Spook humidor)
with friends this weekend whilst drinking Scotch for which I am trying to develop an affinity
I bid you good Day, sir!
People think that their "property rights" are so holy. Well for all of us who feel their neighborhoods, cities, blocks, universe has been taken over by 35 year old white property owners, some of us are trying to take it back.
Wow. I don't know what fantasy world it is in which "buying" = "taking".
Grow up.
I find it amusing that you accuse me of twisting my words but you do the same. I never implied "anything short of prison time's not a punishment at all," but it is fun to think I did, isn't it? I just happen to believe vandalism, especially repeated instances of such, is a more serious problem than you do.
You most certainly did. So much for honest discussion. Anyway it speaks volumes that something as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as graffiti gets the center right, young urban professionals so worked up. Lets see if the recent post about the person who ripped us off for $2,000,000.00 gets 100 plus comments.
Lets see if the recent post about the person who ripped us off for $2,000,000.00 gets 100 plus comments.
Doubt it... Only because it's even more absurd to claim that Ms. Mahajan shouldn't go to PMITA prison.
I still fail to understand what the commotion is all about with this issue: The guy committed a felony. He did thousands of dollars worth of damage to other people's stuff. And some of y'all say it's supposed to be different because he did it with spraypaint rather than a sledgehammer? Come on now.
Actually Rev.Slappy,
while I may not completely "agree with our new friend "this is awkward"
I think it would certainly not hurt (being kind here)for more Americans to examine the under pinning of American capitalism, instead of just looking at it as "fiat" in America. I mean Adam Smith "lived" along time ago
And if you are so willing, due check out public radio's Segment called "Critical Thinking on Capitalism" that aired yesterday
I mean if public readio aired it, It's gotta be mainstream right?
Oh, and there's nothing "center right" about me, not that this is a matter of political ideology anyway.
Lets see if the recent post about the person who ripped us off for $2,000,000.00 gets 100 plus comments.
From the City of Chicago website:
This year, "Graffiti Blasters" is celebrating its 15h anniversary and has cleaned more than 1.6 million instances of graffiti vandalism.
What do you suppose the price tag has been for Chicago taxpayers over the past 15 years?
Spook: You won't hear me deny that capitalism -- especially the form it takes in this country -- has its issues. But buying something is buying something, not "taking" it. Period. I'll start to give notions like TIA's a little credence when they start screeching about people "taking over" food purchased from local restaurants; the logic is just as silly and juvenile.
"...as graffiti gets the center right, young urban professionals so worked up."
making some big assumptions there, cowboy.
And, in any case, I did not realize breaking the law was a matter of ideology. Or having a white-collar job.
Navin, you are proving yourself as useless as Spook. But at least Spook entertains with nearly every post. You just come off as a brainless putz.
matilda, you know far better than to encourage - or let's be truthful - acknowledge you-know-who, unless you really dig brainless, aggressive, personal sniping, executed in flawless illiterate style.
seriously - push the "poof, you don't exist button" in these cases. useful tool, that, especially when applied to a useless tool like he is.
Celery: You are right.
And this is a nice phrase: "...executed in flawless illiterate style." Well done, even if the grammar is a bit off (or, maybe that's the point?)
Navin,
Matilda will get tired of the narrow mined in crowd.
She's just reliving her high school years when the Biff the Captain of the foot ball team tripped her in the lunch room and Becky,( who looked alot like Spav1) his cheer leader girl friend, poured milk on her while a young shy Matilda fumbled around on the floor feeling for her bifocals.
Celerysalt, please, by all means push the "poof button" and keep it pushed.
Oh, and word on the Streets of Mount Greenwood, is that you are far too old and way to big to continue dressing like a Catholic school girl. I'd suggest you purchase a Moo Moo. And make sure it’s not a stripe pattern as the stripes will look like measuring taps circling your ample girth :-)
See you on the Cardinal's lawn
p.s please save some shrimp for the next 20 people in line
<desperately searching for this supposed "poof button">
:)
Matida are you going to join Celery salt and ignore me as well? Excellent!
Oh and I took another gander at your "102 post", I was gonna go over it with my cyber yellow pen, but then I thought why bother. But perhaps you might want to critique/spell check your own posts before you comment on the work of others including your Spook Superior, least you look
Dumber than you already are.
Oh, but you cannot "hear" me because I am on ignore, so
De Camptown ladies sing dis song -- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
I come down dah wid my hat caved in -- Doo-dah! doo-dah!
Matilda is dumb de dumb do de
Man I'm good!
Oh Pookiespoo re 98, I read plenty... I was baiting you Baudrillard wise. Well, caught, I think.
The Matrix was, theoretically, based on the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard. When asked about it in 2003 he said, "The idea that the world is nothing more than a radical illusion has challenged every great culture, and it has been resolved through art and symbolization. What we invented in turn, in order to tolerate this kind of suffering, is a simulated real capable of supplanting the real and bringing about its final solution: a virtual universe from which everything dangerous and negative has been expelled. And The Matrix belongs to that process. Everything has to do with the dream , utopia and fantasy is given expression, "realized". It is a world of integral transparency. The Matrix is the kind of film about the Matrix that the Matrix itself could have produced.
In other words, Baudrillard was saying that by offering a messiah in the alternate reality that was not-the-matrix, the film relays the message that there is a product that exists beyond modernity. And being as how you are steeped in modernity, there is no red pill for you. You are part-and-parcel of matilda's reality.
Don't try to out-dork me, no use there. Just out-jive me. That is your raison-d'etre, n'est-ce pas?
Satre just shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't really care, we were all dead anyway.
Satre also wrote that all writing should be for a communist liberation of humankind... in What is Literature. An admonition equally applicable to all argumentative writing, from his point of view.
We may agree, but an unfortunate citation, given the circumstances.
Dork strikes again.
Adorno references anyone? Happy to oblige.
Yok: Touche. Point taken. Nice dorky strike.
Nietszhe, of course, saw graffiti artists as the representation of the superman, and further proof of the will to power, if not the diminished need for the god concept.
Nerd's dream! We're in agreement, darling, but you're now left to argue how graffiti isn't a Dionysian expression of a Foucauldian subversion of power. Please reference Habermas' "The Philosophical Discourse of Modernity" in your elaboration to send me into paroxyms of delight.
Forgive me my now embarrassing self-exposure, but that's a cross-reference between lectures IV and IX in the same. I should probably take up a porn addiction or something...
Yok: No way I am getting in this fight with you. I surrender.
I respect you if you actually plow through these tracts. I tend to get my philosophy second hand, through history and literature and "Western Thinking for Dummies who want to pretend to be smart."
Spook a quick check on the park district web site shows after school programs are not just in mt. greenwood, bridgeport and Lincoln park. I enjoy many of your post but dont just make up lies.
Navin
Just because someone is charged with a felony does not mean that if and when found guilty they will go to prison. A quick check shows that this is an offense where probation is part of the sentencing guideline, no prison is very unlikely for this kid he will plead it down most likely to a misdeminor conviction with a lot of restitution and community service just what you believe to be appropiate as do I. very often the original charge will be higher than the final conviction to leave room to plea bargin, no this kid isnt going to prison
I can't add much to the conversation that hasn't already been said, so let me just say that dorkiness is totally hot.
"Rev.Sappy"
So I guess you're not gonna take me up on my
"Critical Thinking on Capitalism" offer. figures just another simpleton
YoknapatawphaTourismBoard
mais,oui touché !
I think I've been "out boxed" Je pense ainsi?
but as we being all honest and such, I'm gonna admit, I don't like being out boxed intellectually on Chicagoist, so perhaps I will
torture you will my "french" untill I can stage a dramatic come back!
"Simpleton." Hilarious!
Fed Up I don't make up lies, the after school and summer programs are called Park Kids and they have a fee and there is no free gym any more.
Also wealthy none profits have taken over the parks for only select programs for select kids i.e. "Girls in the Game". So in conclusion, if you call me a liar in a dream you better wake up and apologize,,,,,,,son.
p.s I'm glade I finally figured out the difference between you and Ward-Up, tell him to put me on ignore!
Spook
saying lie may have been to strong but the programs are there citywide not just the white areas you mentioned. Nothings free in this world anymore, yes there is a nominal fee at the parks usually $10-$20 for most of there programs. I have signed my kids up and am satisfied with what they offer. The instruction was not as good as the nearby suburbs parks programs we sometimes use but the price was right and the kids are from the area.
are we really on post 130?
and wait: no one has brought up cars versus bikes yet?
Fed-Up
I never play race as an issue unless it’s just blatant, or I'm having fun :-)
At a certain park that I'm involved in- that I don’t even live around- I see kids with nothing to do after school and during the summer, but can't participate in park activities because they are poor!
Further this park sits between three half way houses. The residents use to be able to use the weight room and play basket ball, but not because of fees the weight room is mostly empty as well as the basket ball court. What are we saying to x offenders trying to go straight. Sorry no jobs and you can't even release your frustrations at your locale park!
The park use to provide respite and opportunities for the above populations. I remember hearing the old timers talking about the opportunities provided to keep kids out of trouble and get them summer jobs. Now the gangs sponsor free baseball leagues with uniforms!
These kids don’t have those options or safety nets. And are we discussing this issue? No! A bunch of backwards thinking monkeys trying to sound all intelligent are debating back and forth about kids spray painting buildings, instead of the fact that if those kids had options they would probably be doing something productive.
Do you feel me Fed Up? Can I get a witness? Like Tupac said
"Holla if you Hear me!"
making some big assumptions there, cowboy.
Yeah it's almost like I haven't been reading or paying attention to the posting habits of chicagoist readers for a few years now............
And, in any case, I did not realize breaking the law was a matter of ideology. Or having a white-collar job.
It certainly isn't!
Navin, you are proving yourself as useless as Spook. But at least Spook entertains with nearly every post. You just come off as a brainless putz.
So now our resident contrarian is reduced to making a pathetic ad hominem attack. Go toss your coffee on the first person that bikes by 'Tilda. Maybe that'll temporarily make you forget that you hate yourself. Just don't go all "Falling Down" on us if you can avoid it. Watch out 'lower downs'! Tildas on the loose!
Wow. Fail.
Wow, Spook, you CAN write mostly grammatically correct sentences, including capital letters, commas, and periods when you put my mind to it. You are smart, S-M-R-T. Smart, smart smart! Gold star to you. Holla!
"Maybe that'll temporarily make you forget that you hate yourself. "
Thanks, Dr Phil. Do you charge by the hour or do this pro bono?
yea, but my creativity suffers greatly and I can't cause as much trouble, I can't spite fire, son, screw spell check, proof reading takes too much time don't get use to it, seriously, son. And I think I'm gonna break out the college French son
Besides people are only getting dumber on Chicagoist, Have you read these posts?
Me, Navin, and Matty and a few others have been the the only brave voices of reason. We've been invaded by 2nd city cop lovers and the daughters of 19th ward Cook County Sheriff's Police who love the Machine but hate Todd Stoger
Fed,
Regarding sentencing, I'm glad you pointed that out and I hope you're right.
Navin.......are you a sand mite or something like that? Your picture, or is it the symbol of a luxury car? It takes too long to check, so I figured I'd just ask, or axe?
That's some spider dollar bill origami my ninja!
ahhhhh thank you kind sire for the enlightenment
may your lager stien runneth over!
@88 "This is awkward":
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And the best way to "take it back from the man".
Once again, here comes the self-entitled "low-rent logic". "You damned motorists [read: people with jobs and money] are ruining the streets for my bike". Now it's another group of habitual law breakers who are trying to make "art". Tell ya what: buy canvas or use the inside walls of your house.
I'm just curious though. In your fantasy land, if all the graffiti artists are all "rich people who own lucrative galleries", than how in the world do they have time to wander the streets with a can of spray paint?
Spook- I finally halfway agree with your inflammatory self.
Most graffiti writers I know are talented or at least have the desire to be talented.
The felony charge should be reserved for people who do dangerous crimes like rape, battery, arson, armed robbery, Murder. You know the things that are actually dangerous to people.
It is against the law to speed in your SUV and I bet that kills more people than graffiti every day.
Just because a kid pisses you off and writes on your wall doesn't mean they are 100% full of evil and should be shipped directly to Gitmo.
Get a hold of yourself and really think about how many times you break the law everyday. Did you not pay that meter? Did you park in the handicap spot just for a sec? Speed? Take a right turn on Red? Talk on your cell while driving? What about that time you dinged that guys bumper when you were trying to park your car?
This kid has potential to be a contributing member of society instead of the mindless worker drone that our education system is built to pump out.
If you hate graffiti because it is obnoxious to you then consider these Crimes against Society that I think are obnoxious and will one day be felonies:
Guzzling Gas (now a sin)
Wasting Resources
Polluting (also a new sin)
Shooting People with Potato Guns (actual felony)
Outdoor Advertising
Neon Signs
Being an Asshole when you drive because you think bikes are really going to stop at stop signs.
Respectfully,
KFunk
Taking Fools Out Till Chicago's Killed with my Cold Ass Bros....
LOL.
Driving an SUV is crime akin to defacing somebody else's property. The law according to the under employed.
The point is which one does more damage to society.
A little paint on your wall vs. air pollution in your lungs/global warming/oil wars.
Which one is a felony and which one is legal is just a technical detail. If you weigh the net effect on society as a socially conscious person would be expected to do then you will probably encourage the uninvited painting on walls over federal subsidies of SUVs for small business owners.
Look around- who is really ruining your country/neighborhood? The kid with the spray can is not a felony- it is a social symptom.
Damage to society?
Dude: I'm talking about people causing damage to property. My SUV doesn't. Your paint can does.
Which one is a felony and which one is legal is just a technical detail. If you weigh the net effect on society as a socially conscious person would be expected to do then you will probably encourage the uninvited painting on walls over federal subsidies of SUVs for small business owners.
If you can just make up equivalences for that, you can for just about anything. So, let's see... which is worse, a guy masturbating in your front window or the bus you take to work? The clear answer is the bus as the onanist causes no harm apart from the need for a little Windex.
Ergo, time to outlaw buses.
K Funk!
if I might comment on your quote noted below
"This kid has potential to be a contributing member of society instead of the mindless worker drone that our education system is built to pump out."
OMG! Do you even mean to suggest that this kid, perhaps has some sort of miss directed artistic drive, which the other drones don't? Or that perhaps we should consider the differences between Gang tagging and tagging of none gang kids? Get the F*Ck Out!
Did you not get the MEMO from the Holly Catholics drinking on the Cardinal's perfect Green Lawn St. Pats Block Club Party Theology on Bud Lite Beer Tap Social Justice Committee"??????
There is NO room allowed for deeper critical analysis especially when it comes to "our" youth, which also precludes considering some sort of public space for them too mark up and create on!
It’s ironic that the Only Yuppie Baby on Board for the Fairest of Skin commentators and writers get so much goo goo ga ga love when it’s about their babies of privilege.
But let a baby stray out the confines of our in between the Red Eye and intellectual lite city, then even if that Baby’s name is Jason Ryan Taylor who attends a working class public high school like Von Stuben or Mather, his name might as well be Leroy De Andre Jones
p.s
This includes the Holly Name Six!