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People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals bought 65 shares of Chicago-based DeVry University last week, part of a plan to escalate its campaign against the technical school's veterinary program. PETA plans to show up at DeVry's November 13 shareholders meeting to stage a protest and appeal to the board. According to the animal welfare organization, the St. Kitts-based Ross University veterinary school requires their students to operate on healthy animals. PETA charges that "healthy dogs have their stomachs, intestines and urinary bladders needlessly cut open. Sheep have tissue removed and suffer from infected wounds because skin flaps are improperly sutured. Donkeys have the nerves in their toes severed, their ligaments cut, plastic tubes inserted through their noses to their stomachs, their abdomens punctured, their tracheas (windpipes) cut, and fluid removed from their joints – after which they are killed so that students can practise amputating animals’ bones and drilling into their skulls."
“We believe it is a violation of the island’s treatment of animals act,” said PETA Research Associate Shalin Gala. Gala says that the school has stopped operating on dogs, but continue to use live sheep and donkeys as part of the curriculum. If PETA is unsuccessful in getting the school to change its practices at the shareholders meeting, they intend to file a shareholders resolution next year demanding an end to inhumane practices.
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They're all hot and bothered because vet students practice their craft on animals? So they'd rather the vet students never see the inside of an animal until they're asked to operate on somebody's pet?
I swear, PETA is a front for the beef industry, because every time they issue a press release on some damn fool thing like this, I just want to go order a steak to piss them off.
So when these PETA idiots can't find a qualified vet to care for their beloved companion animals they can blame themselves.
Complete lack of perspective from this people. Do they think vets are chapping up animals for laughs?
Maybe they think the students should be operating on already sick animals. Maybe animals from shelters that need treatment or from owners who can't afford it.
You know how dental schools don't practice root canals on healthy teeth? And med students don't remove organs from healthy people? And hair stylists don't give haircuts to people who don't want them?
Are you starting to understand? Or does that make you want to eat a steak because that's such a funny and original thing to say.
What, so when it comes time for the lesson on "how to open a dog's stomach" they sit around the phone waiting for a shelter dog to eat a plastic bag?
So we put the interests of pets who need vets behind "shelter cats we are going to euthanize next week anyway?"
There are many, many sick and dying animals that could use free treatment. Not everyone has tons of cash to spend on designer pets and ridiculous acoutremount (or however that's spelled).
They should buy shares in Tyson. It's kind of an awesome twist to capitalism, isn't it?
@thirdshiftdave:
No, you're wrong here. Vets in training can't wait around for the random animal with an ailment they are studying to come in the door. That's foolhardy, given the array of animal ailments out there. Many vet schools DO operate free clinics, but you need training before you start handling companion and work animals.
Unlike with human patients, who can often communicate distress, animals cannot, so working on a live animal in training to be a vet is vital to learning how they communicate distress.
Animals can't give consent, or offer themselves up freely as subjects.
The problem with PETA is their stance is based in an emotional response (animals in pain) to a logical problem (how to best train vets) and now they're going to bring their squishy, unscientific nonsense to the management of an academic institution. Idiocy.
Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" on PETA or read any number of the books about the misguided and irrational approach this group takes to animal welfare. This is not a kindly group of concerned citizens.
Dr. Whymustiregister: Then how do they learn to cut open stomachs in medical school for people?
Anyone who still supports these hypocritical windbags ought to watch the Penn & Teller: Bullshit episode about PETA.
You know how dental schools don't practice root canals on healthy teeth? And med students don't remove organs from healthy people? And hair stylists don't give haircuts to people who don't want them?
Humans are not dogs. Yeah, I know, I am heartless, but I really am not ready to give human rights to non-humans. Sue me. But make sure you have thrown away most of your medications first (along with other products that still depend on the suffering of animals).
But as much as I despise PETA and its extreme, anti-scientific view of the world, I give them credit for using the ways of capitalism instead of throwing paint or performing other semi-legal theater.
@Kevin Robinson
Then how do they learn to cut open stomachs in medical school for people?
Again, communication. A family brings in a pet who hasn't been eating. They don't know when it started, just that the pet is agitated, pacing and not eating right now. The animal could have an obstruction, the flu, a virus, poisoning or any number of issues. It can't say "I ate these berries two days ago" or "I think I swallowed something metallic". Diagnosing on a live animal, being able to read a living creature and work on it in an exploratory and diagnostic manner requires live subject practice.
The notion that anyone involved in veterinary medicine is enjoying the use of these animals is complete and utter BULLSHIT. PETA wants to impede scientific training because they feel bad.
Fuck PETA.
PETArds, you use the live and health animals for teaching students to INCREASE the likelyhood that the surgery will be SUCCESSFUL. You can't have a back up supply of cats with pyometria (infection of the uterus) unless PETA advocates INFECTING healthy animals first.
Be aware that PETA is also making a play to purchase Sea World in San Diego. They will 'free' the animals and replace them with plastic copies for a faux zoo experience.
Is this something every vet school does, or only Ross? If other schools aren't doing it, why does Ross feel the need to teach this way? I did a quick internet serach and couldn't find another intsance of PETA protesting a vet school for this type of conduct. While I don't agree with many of PETA's stances, they may have a point here.
I don't really see why this is controversial either. Med students intern in offices, hospitals, etc, and learn from doing, why would vet students be any different?
i'm sorry ... but as i'm reading this post (which of course i always tend to read too fast), it says they're doing things to HEALTHY animals. i'm not seeing the analogy to med students interning in offices, hospitals, etc. to this. med students don't open up healthy people to practice doing surgery ...
and no one answered kevin's question, which is ... med students use CADAVERS to practice these things.
i also don't get the pets can't talk line of reasoning. right. exactly. these animals can't fend for themselves, so we should use them as ... guinea pigs? why NOT use a sick animal rather than a healthy animal? not sure i get this. you're sick and can't tell me what's wrong, so i shouldn't operate on you and try and fix you, but you ... the healthy dog who's doing fine, i'll cut you open for the hell of it?
i'm confused by the logic of some of these comments. i'm okay with trying to help legitimately sick dogs/animals with interns, etc., if people are properly supervised. but to just mess around with perfectly healthy animals is abusive, imo.
I was actually agreeing with your sentiment. I don't understand why it's controversial to NOT do surgery on healthy animals. Seems only logical they'd follow a similar course to the human health professions.
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Albanyparkour: Your posts are collectively the most ridiculous I have ever read. "Swallowed something metallic"?! Ever heard of an X-Ray? There's no need, ever, to practice cutting a live animal's stomach open any more than there is to do the same to a human.
Slaphappy: You're really relying on Penn and Teller, a couple of hack comedians, to shape your views on morality? You're citing Penn Jillette for research about animal rights? Really? Swell. I'm sure you've also learned everything you need to know about the criminal justice system from Oz.
Albanyparkour: "Animals can't give consent, or offer themselves up freely as subjects." Yeah, exactly. If you're so concerned with the future strides of the vet world, why don't you give your consent to have your urinary bladder cut open?
ForestCats: By God, I hope your second item is true. I'd love nothing more than for you to find something else to do on a Saturday than pay to see a captive whale.
Methinks most of you anti-PETA, Consumer Freedom-loving, McDonald's gorging folks doth protest too much: stop trying to cover up your guilt and empathy with lame references to Penn and Teller and just embrace your gut feeling that what DeVry is doing is just wrong.
why NOT use a sick animal rather than a healthy animal? not sure i get this.
This should be obvious. These schools aren't in the business of helping sick animals - they're in the business of training people to help sick animals. The main issue with this entire conversation is that animal rights is an oxymoron on its face.
@GriffinMill:
Ah, a Gandhi quote. So if we argue with you, we're arguing with Gandhi. Right. No.
Albanyparkour: Your posts are collectively the most ridiculous I have ever read.
You don't read very much do you? Not that your arguments would evidence that.
"Swallowed something metallic"?! Ever heard of an X-Ray?
And once you have that x-ray, how do you plan on removing the obstruction? Sorcery? Chi? Crystals? Hopes? Dreams? Fairy Dust?
Beyond that fact that x-rays are hideously expensive (how many pet owners on here have veterinary insurance?) and diagnosing by touch or *GASP* hands-on experience could save money, time and perhaps the animal's life.
There's no need, ever, to practice cutting a live animal's stomach open any more than there is to do the same to a human.
Exploratory surgery, exploratory diagnosis, various kinds of treatment for digestive diseases. Again, books, not the enemy.
Albanyparkour: "Animals can't give consent, or offer themselves up freely as subjects." Yeah, exactly. If you're so concerned with the future strides of the vet world, why don't you give your consent to have your urinary bladder cut open?
Humans aren't animals. I know that's a confusing idea for some. We're human beings. Whether you believe in a soul or a moral right or simply evolutionary superiority, we're the dominant species. We have remarkable largess for the lower species, to the point of training ourselves to care for them when they become ill.
They're called veterinarians.
By God, I hope your second item is true. I'd love nothing more than for you to find something else to do on a Saturday than pay to see a captive whale.
That would be dead, hunted by whalers or killed in oceanic dead zones. Again, humans protecting animals. I don't see a lot of gorillas helping cure cancer.
Methinks most of you anti-PETA, Consumer Freedom-loving, McDonald's gorging folks doth protest too much:
What a reductionist waste of typing. Yes, everyone who disagrees with PETAs bombast is the enemy. What a woefully simple-minded approach. If you're not with us, you're against us? That rings false, and familiar.
stop trying to cover up your guilt and empathy with lame references to Penn and Teller and just embrace your gut feeling that what DeVry is doing is just wrong.
Yes, ignore facts and logic, ignore science and reason, ignore reality and trust your "gut feelings". Let emotions sway you on issues of scientific research and principle. Let's put our faith in PETA to know best, a loose confederation of animal lovers, not those big meanies who've made their life's work healing and caring for sick animals.
Here's simple math for your simple mind, if a vet has to take the life of say a dozen animals (likely a high number) in the course of their training and then uses that training to save THOUSANDS of animals over the course of their career is it worth is?
My conscience is clear in saying loudly and proudly YES.
I'll close with a quote.
"Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughter houses." -Ingrid Newkirk (PETA)
PETA needs to back off and let these schools learn to teach veterinary medicine.
Think about this: animals used in the teaching of medicine are for a good cause. It helps to save our pets lives.
PETA on the other hand, takes cats and dogs from shelters under false pretenses saying they are going to find them homes, only to kill them in the back of vans and dump the bodies in trash dumpsters.
When PETA is killing the animals anyhow, why not use them to teach our new veterinarian students?
Albany, you have some major issues.
If you were an animal in a cage just waiting for the next round of pain to come your way, you'd wish PETA would show up.
And many may think that PETA takes things too far, but an analogy would be the fashion world...when you see the crazy shit that goes down the Paris and Milan runways each spring and fall that's not the stuff that you and I are going to buy. It is the ideas that get generated by all of the outrageous runway fashion that make their way into retail.
So you might think of PETA as the 'bar'. They may not be your cup of tea, but they're out there on the front lines and they bring attention to so much that is WRONG with the way animals get treated in this world. Too many people take a laissez-faire attitude about animal welfare.
I know someone who just got back from a honeymoon in Costa Rica. Feral dogs and cats roaming the streets like ants. Starving, diseased, abused and neglected...nobody cares about them.
PETA is around to make sure that kind of abuse doesn't happen here.
Albanyparkour you have too much time my friend.
"And hair stylists don't give haircuts to people who don't want them?"
PETA is not in the wrong here and there way of going about it might just work
Slaphappy: You're really relying on Penn and Teller, a couple of hack comedians, to shape your views on morality? You're citing Penn Jillette for research about animal rights? Really? Swell. I'm sure you've also learned everything you need to know about the criminal justice system from Oz.
Listen, you piece of crap, I grew up not far from PETA headquarters. Most of what P&T covered in their PETA episode was already well-established back home, including but not limited to:
• The fact that PETA euthanizes two thirds of the animals they take in at their headquarters
• VP Mary Beth Sweetland takes daily medicine (insulin) that was tested on animals
• Pres. Ingrid Newkirk would be against animal testing that lead to the cure of AIDS
• PETA's unabashed support of the Animal Liberation Front
So don't belittle me, or try to make out to be some uninformed dope, because I don't agree with your "animals are people, too" feel-good BS fucking viewpoint. Got it?
If you were an animal in a cage just waiting for the next round of pain to come your way, you'd wish PETA would show up.
Ingrid, you made my day.
PETA is around to make sure that kind of abuse doesn't happen here.
Stray animals? lol.
Slaphappy, I think you've just proven Griffin's point.
The majority are quoting what the media feeds you about PETA. If any of you that are against PETA actually did some research on the company instead of spitting out the spoon-fed BS, I might actually take your opinions into consideration.
Once again...the dumbing down of America
>PETA is around to make sure that kind of abuse doesn't happen here.
Ha! Right! That's why they are staging a protest against a vet school. Because if vets got good training then there would be more strays... huh?
Hey guys! Your seven cats need the litter changed again. Maybe that's a better use of your time.
Slaphappy: That last comment was on the verge of violating our Terms of Service.
Take a deep breath and relax before you hit post.
Ohio State University would seem to agree that the use of healthy animals for unnecessary surgery practice raises some serious ethical questions at the very least, and could also lead to negative learning experiences for veterinary students as well...
But then again, OSU is only ranked in the top 5 for best Veterinary Medicine schools in the U.S., while a fine and storied institution like DeVry is probably leaps and bounds ahead of them in terms of methodology...
@Ingrid:
If you were an animal in a cage just waiting for the next round of pain to come your way, you'd wish PETA would show up.
Well, I'm not, so goody. But I am a pet owner and I'm very grateful that well trained veterinary professionals will be taking care of my cat when I take him in with an ailment.
So you might think of PETA as the 'bar'. They may not be your cup of tea, but they're out there on the front lines and they bring attention to so much that is WRONG with the way animals get treated in this world. Too many people take a laissez-faire attitude about animal welfare.
That comparison is utterly inaccurate in this case, and across the board, but let's focus on this. Here PETA is trying to use their money to change the cirricula of a school. Using your analogy, that's like Eve St. Laurant buying leverage in local clothiers so they can dictate style. Though, that might actually be an improvement.
This is a group with a radical political agenda using it's money to change the way a school educates scientific professionals.
If they were faith healers trying buying up seats on the board of John's Hopkins would you feel as comfortable?
I know someone who just got back from a honeymoon in Costa Rica. Feral dogs and cats roaming the streets like ants. Starving, diseased, abused and neglected...nobody cares about them.
One of the few things PETA does get right is their support of local spay and neuter programs. Spay and neuter being a surgery performed on a live animal, something that vets generally need to...I dunno...practice?
PETA is around to make sure that kind of abuse doesn't happen here.
Actually, animal control, the humane society and shelters do that. PETA makes a lot of noise and alienates people with that ridiculous sloganeering.
@Animallover:
The majority are quoting what the media feeds you about PETA. If any of you that are against PETA actually did some research on the company instead of spitting out the spoon-fed BS, I might actually take your opinions into consideration.
A: It's not a company (501 c3) so there's your vaunted research O Enlightened One.
B: My opinion of PETA comes from reading about the organization for years, a friend who quit the group and who refers to them as "Hippie evangelical science-haters" and the documentary "I Am an Animal" about Ingrid Newkirk, a deeply disturbed woman and founder of PETA.
I don't have too much time on my hands, just a fast typist who would rather smash some brain cells about than zone out to more passive media. Just my druthers.
As a big contributor to PETA I am going to defend them til the end.
Why don't you get one of their magazines and read through it and just absorb the things that they are bringing to the public's attention.
How many of you continue to feed your pets IAM'S brand food when that company is one of the worst offenders regarding animal abuse around? It was PETA employees who got jobs at IAM'S and went undercover to expose horrendous abuse by that company. You can check it out yourself at www.iamscruelty.com
Many people don't agree with their tactics and there are times when I don't agree with them either, but throughout history there are people and movements who do good and are not popular with some people. You can't please everyone all the time. I would never in my life throw red paint on someone wearing a fur coat, it makes me cringe when I hear about those kind of shenanigans...but on the other hand...it makes the news and hopefully gets people to start thinking about wearing fur.
Do you think that if they were standing on a street corner doing lame things like holding signs that said "DON'T WEAR FUR" that it would make headlines?
Sometimes the end justifies the means.
Just remember that there are many, many rumors that get spread about PETA that are not true...they would go under the heading of "Urban Legend". Many of these rumors are outrageous and downright crazy and yet for whatever reason, people seem so willing to lap it up and they get off on the fact that they've found their purpose: Bashing PETA!!! Hooray!!!
They can nitpick at any little discretion of any PETA representative...omigod...SHE takes medicine that was tested on animals...she's an evil sinner!!! Get her!!!
For all of you PETA bashers...put your money were your big mouths are...write letters to the offenders...write to IAMS, boycott the companies who continue to carry out abuses, don't patronize stores that sell puppies and kittens from the mills, and if you take offense at things PETA does, write them letters to tell them what you think. But you just can't bash them across the board...they do way too much good work, especially compared to what you do towards the betterment of animal welfare. Taking good care of your cat, Albany, is wonderful...but either put up or shut up.
As a big contributor to PETA I am going to defend them til the end.
So many other worthwhile HUMAN causes to donate to, but it's your money.
Why don't you get one of their magazines and read through it and just absorb the things that they are bringing to the public's attention.
In my case, because I'd rather read objective works about them than their screeds. I've read their press releases, seen their comics for kids and spoken with a former member. They skew facts to fit their agenda, or more simply, they lie.
Sometimes the end justifies the means. It's very interesting that both you and the other gent defending PETA above both used the logic of the war on terror. He quoted Gandhi, the soul of whose argument was that the means ARE the end. Peace begets peace, histrionics begets histrionics.
Just remember that there are many, many rumors that get spread about PETA that are not true...they would go under the heading of "Urban Legend". Many of these rumors are outrageous and downright crazy and yet for whatever reason, people seem so willing to lap it up and they get off on the fact that they've found their purpose: Bashing PETA!!! Hooray!!!
Oh do get off the cross, we could use the wood. There are rumors that Obama is secretly a Muslim Manchurian candidate or that John McCain drinks baby's blood (well...). Any group of notable person will have rumors spread about them. Everything I've argued against PETA is from what they do, what they stand for and how they go about it. I even credited them for sponsoring spaying and neutering. Sadly, it's like a stopped clock, right twice a day.
They can nitpick at any little discretion of any PETA representative...omigod...SHE takes medicine that was tested on animals...she's an evil sinner!!! Get her!!!
No, but when you would deny others that chance to experience longer and healthier lives while you benefit yourself...you're going to get deservedly railed.
For all of you PETA bashers...put your money were your big mouths are...write letters to the offenders...write to IAMS, boycott the companies who continue to carry out abuses, don't patronize stores that sell puppies and kittens from the mills,
I got my pet from a no-kill shelter. I don't buy IAMS products, for a multitude of reasons. As for "abuses", how do you define it? I have no problem with medical testing on animals. You're asking us to buy into your moral worldview. No.
and if you take offense at things PETA does, write them letters to tell them what you think. But you just can't bash them across the board...
No, and yes, we can. No, because I won't waste my time trying to convince people who equate egg production and the holocaust or who undertake anti-science/anti-rational measures like the one in this post. Trying to convince fanatics with letter-writing is akin to chewing gum to solve a math equation.
they do way too much good work, especially compared to what you do towards the betterment of animal welfare.
You mean like the non-profit commercial I wrote and filmed for a no-kill shelter? Or the volunteer work I've done with that shelter, or the donations I've made to them over the years? Perhaps a letter would have been better. Certainly would have been cheaper and easier.
So, you're talking directly out of your ass.
Taking good care of your cat, Albany, is wonderful...but either put up or shut up.
I have no need or desire to prove myself to you and you've proven nothing, save how shrill and defensive PETA members can become. But that wasn't really in question, was it?
Albany,
It's obvious you only hear and see what you want to. It's all black and white to you...but you're young and that's not your fault... (to borrow a line from Cat Stevens).
I don't see myself as a 'shrill' defender of PETA...I have emphasized that I don't agree with every single thing they espouse.
There are a gazillion other businesses and organizations out there that do heinous and grievous harm to animals for profit and their own self aggrandizement...I would think those would warrant your energy and disdain, but they're devious and covert. PETA is out there for you to see, so you lash out at them when their soul mission is to stop animal abuse.
To borrow another line, this time from PETA...Give Peas A Chance!! ;)
throughout history there are people and movements who do good and are not popular with some people.
I hope that I'm not the only one that caught the irony of this statement.
Ingrid, hug and cuddle your cute little ball of fur for me.
It's obvious you only hear and see what you want to. It's all black and white to you...but you're young and that's not your fault... (to borrow a line from Cat Stevens).
It's neither black nor white, moral absolutes are for amateurs. I don't think you fully understand the group you support.
When Cat Stevens wrote that line, he wasn't much older than I am.
I would think those would warrant your energy and disdain, but they're devious and covert. PETA is out there for you to see, so you lash out at them when their soul mission is to stop animal abuse.
Yes, there are, but to paraphrase a far more talented poet than the unfortunate Mr. Stevens, "My Disdain is vast, it contains multitudes".
Science and reason are what separate us from the animal. Whether you ascribe this to a divine source (I do, but that's another argument) or simple perfection of evolution, our reason, our science allows us to understand and explore the world around us through rational means.
PETA would have us turn back the clock on scientific advancement. They don't see the greater good that comes from animal experimentation, the endless lists of diseases discovered, treated and cured is simply noise to their ears. Now they're attacking the very underpinnings of education itself to advance an agenda that can be surmised as "Awww...kitties."
There's nothing wrong with having compassion for animals, caring for them is natural and another very human trait.
Finally, an anecdote. When my cat came to live with me he was perilously thin and somewhat weak. In his first week with me he developed a respiratory infection. There were several frightening trips to the vet and I tried desperately to get him to eat. At night, he would come and slump his head on my arm and look up at me with, what I can only call pleading in his eyes. He wanted me to make the pain stop, to make him better.
Finally he ended up staying with the vet for nearly a week, on an iv at one point. They saved him and now he's a robust and active cat.
I'm grateful that the vet got to learn her skills in the best possible setting. If that means live animal experimentation and education, more power to them. The sacrifice of a few animals save and improves the lives of countless more. If you cannot accept that, I simply can't understand you.
Albany, since you lamely brought up the Holocaust in a cheap attempt at pathos, I'll add that we achieved countless medical and scientific advances from the Nazis and their heinous experiments.
You say it's OK to torture when the lives of some will help the lives of many in the future. But you think the Nazis were vile because of the way they went about their research. You seem to want to have it both ways.
Slaphappy: You're the one who called me a "piece of crap" and felt the need to curse, so clearly you have no right to attack my debate style.
But yeah, you ARE an uninformed dope: PETA kills animals that have been beaten and abused and are in pain. They in no way try to conceal this fact; it was featured prominently in a documentary about Ingrid Newkirk on HBO, and in a profile on her in The New Yorker. They want to remove animals from pain. The DeVry animals are healthy, happy animals that are then subjected to pain.
I'm not sure how else to explain this reasoning to you. Pain bad, health good? Still no? Maybe you can get back to me after the next season of the Penn & Teller show?
Albany, since you lamely brought up the Holocaust in a cheap attempt at pathos,
No. It was to show the deeply disturbed mindset of a founder of PETA.
I'll add that we achieved countless medical and scientific advances from the Nazis and their heinous experiments.
Actually, that's factually inaccurate. At the bottom of this post is a link to a NY Times article from nearly 20 years ago that explains how none of the Nazi camp data is actually scientifically useful.
You say it's OK to torture when the lives of some will help the lives of many in the future.
Yes. It is perfectly acceptable to experiment on animals if those experiments will save human and animal lives in the future.
But you think the Nazis were vile because of the way they went about their research. You seem to want to have it both ways.
No. The Nazi's were experimenting on PEOPLE. Do you see a difference? I do. Sane, rational people do.
If you choose to be a vegan, not use leather, wear fur and avoid products using or tested on animals, more power to you. But trying to argue that human life and animal life are interchangeable? That's madness.
You're the one who called me a "piece of crap" and felt the need to curse, so clearly you have no right to attack my debate style.
You're trying very hard to provoke people and engage in bombast here. Slaphappy went over the line, but don't try to paint yourself as a victim.
But yeah, you ARE an uninformed dope:
*Sigh*
I'm not sure how else to explain this reasoning to you. Pain bad, health good? Still no? Maybe you can get back to me after the next season of the Penn & Teller show?
Did Penn and Teller steal your lunch money as a child? Perhaps they made a love one vanish and never let them reappear? It's a TV show with a couple of skeptics editorializing on touchy issue, sometimes they're quite funny, sometimes they're quite odious. The episode on PETA was remarkably effective because in seeing how deranged some of the organization's methods are and how uninformed their leadership is, you can't help but ask questions about what they stand for.
The NY Times Article on Nazi Science. Give it a read
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFDD1431F934A15756C0A966958260
Albany: You're conflating two issues here. You may not like or support PETA, but how can you defend a program practicing procedures on healthy animals when the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of vet schools do not find that necessary and do not support it?
Anyone else feel like having some KFC right about now?