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Yesterday we explored what we thought was a benign attempt by a fringe political group to raise a ruckus over Barack Obama's birth certificate. Boy, were we wrong. While we're not putting on our tinfoil hats, it definitely has earned our attention. There have been several lawsuits filed regarding the release of Obama's birth certificate, including one by former Obama opponent Alan Keyes, and now one of the cases has made its way to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court will consider tomorrow whether or not to hear a lawsuit brought by Leo Donofrio against New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells, a suit originally intended to delay the election.
The most famous case questioning Obama's citizenship was filed in Pennsylvania in August on behalf of Philip J. Berg and sought to enjoin the Democratic National Committee from nominating Obama. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to accept the case. Earlier, a federal judge rejected it for "lack of standing"—ruling that Berg had no legal right to sue. In cases like this, judges sometimes believe the matter is best left to political institutions, such as the Electoral College or Congress, said legal scholar Eugene Volokh of the University of California at Los Angeles.Many sites, including PolitiFact and FactCheck, have explored the case and it's hard to believe that such an extensive conspiracy could stem from a birth certificate. If anyone was going to raise a stink about it, wouldn't it be the party Rove ran? Sure, maybe we're naive, but we just find it hard to believe that Obama has gotten this far with a fake birth certificate. As the folks at PolitiFact put it:The remaining case with the highest profile is Donofrio vs. Wells. Because it was distributed by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas to other justices for conference, it gained undue importance for people unschooled in how the court works, Volokh said.
Many petitioners seeking stays of pending events have their cases distributed to the full court, he said. Of those, Volokh found that 782 were denied in the last eight years while just 60 were heard—and not all of those ultimately were successful.
It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over.
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Your headline is a tad misleading.
What's the point of this? We all know that the Supreme Court is just gonna check factcheck.org and snopes. Even if they want to look at the real thing, Hawaii law "prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record". How are they gonna get around that one?
Let's face it. We're screwed. We're stuck with an alien from Alderbaran running the most powerful democracy in the free universe!
I'm heading for Canada.
While the original headline was technically true, I see your point. Adjusted it accordingly.
I'm not buying into this conspiracy (I personally think it's nonsense) but the birth certificate pictured here is not what would have been prepared and filed in 1961. It's nothing more than a modern certificate issued by the State of Hawaii, indicating that its records show that Barack was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961.
There should be an original birth certificate in the state or county's files (with copies perhaps retained by Barack or his family) containing more specific information. The original certificate should also look like it was prepared in 1961, not 2008.
Mss, if you look really, really closely at the bottom of the document (God these glasses are great!), it does say "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
Anyone better versed in legalese know exactly what that terminology means?
To me, this whole thing is just sour grapes with a smattering of racism and xenophobia by the fringiest of the fringe.
To me, this whole thing is just sour grapes with a smattering of racism and xenophobia by the fringiest of the fringe.
Indeed, and I'm surpised they haven't crawled out of their mother's basement to spam like crazy like they did in the related story yesterday.
Remember folks, Alan Keyes is still running for that senate seat, he never conceded to that abortion-loving commie who even jesus would not vote for.
His very presence in this nonsense requires a minimum of two layers of tinfoil in your hat.
Sincere question, do these people really think that Joe Biden is going to be better for them? Wait, such consideration requires rational thought. Never mind.
It's so clear to me that this whole bogus conspiracy (and people's willingness to entertain it) is born of idle minds and subconscious xenophobia. If Barack Obama was a white guy from Cleveland who had a Swedish dad and all of the other circumstances were similar, I am convinced that this would not be happening.
But Obama has a unique name and dark skin (and relatives from, gasp, other countries with, gasp, even darker skin). And many people are gullible and sheltered enough to buy into this idea that being different is unAmerican. So the Jerome Corsis of the world (who know better but seek to spread disinformation among the rube masses) spead this bogus crap around.
It's funny ... I'm a white guy, but I still feel like I have some things in common with Obama. I grew up in Honolulu ... I was born there and then moved back from 2nd through 6th grade. I had friends who went to his alma mater, Punaho. At a young impressionable age, nearly all of my friends were Chinese, Japanese or Phillipino ... and I wanted to much to look like them. I'm so glad I had that experience, to feel almost like a minority while forming my character and opinions. To be a "haole." Being a Navy brat, I don't have a "home" and my parents are still transient. So Chicago is home now.
To me, Barack Obama is just as American as anyone else. His unique experience, his accomplishments ... they're remarkable to me. I think it's shameful and disgusting that there are so many people here whose lives are so limited that they see the same things I do and think it's threatening, suspicious and odd.
Y'know, John McCain was born in panama.
Mind you, he's white, so he's clearly American.
Well I hope I never have to prove to a room full of right wingers that I'm a natural born American citizen, since my original birth certificate was burned in a house fire and the copy I have now looks much like the one above.
Chaun,
I understand it's easier to blame the "right wingers," but I first got wind of this during primaries when Hilary Clinton backers were trying to get Obama tossed out.
This story is blown way out of proportion. The Supreme Court is not hearing the case.
The plaintiff's case was dismissed in District Court for lack of standing. He appealed to the Circuit Court, which affirmed the dissmissal.
He then filed a cert petition and an emergency relief petition to Justice Souter, who denied it. He then presented it to Justice Thomas who said they'd look at it at the next cert conference.
Today, the judges will look at dozens of cert petitions, which need four votes for a cert, and five for a stay. It certainly won't get the votes, and probably won't even be mentioned specifically, but added to a blanket list of denials from the conference.
"Mss, if you look really, really closely at the bottom of the document (God these glasses are great!), it does say "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
Anyone better versed in legalese know exactly what that terminology means?"
I can't give you an exact meaning of "prima facie evidence" but prima facie means "on its face" or "on first glance."
ex. for certain crimes you have several elements that test whether or not there is a prima facie case for a certain situation. Fulfill all of the necessary elements and you have a prima facie case that could conceivably be brought before the court.
just by inference.....I think what it's saying is that the very existence of this birth certificate shows that there was a birth that took place unless there is some sort of forgery, etc.
Hey, if some people can organize to fraudulently get someone into the White House, can't those same people reconvene 8 years later to keep someone out?
I should add that even if the Court voted to hear the cert, it would mean that they would have a hearing sometime in the future on the merits of the case *in the lower court.* If they decided the case had merit, it would just mean the lower court would have to hear the case. There isn't even a question at this point of the Supreme Court hearing the case.
Understand Obama could end this by signing a release and paying $12.00 and producing a copy of his original birth certificate or a Certificate of Live Birth. Obama has obstinantly refused to do so and instead appears willing to drive the country into one of the greatest crisis in our history. But there is no accurate news coverage and articles like this that try to minimize the issue.
This has been a story since at least last February. Look at the New York Times and you will find a full article asking if McCain is a "natural born citizen". It was picked up by all of the main stream media. At the same time Obama was being questioned about this. Any coverage on Obama? No, just like now there is a complete media blackout or there are articles that mis-state the facts and try to say it is a fringe or lunatic group...
McCain produced all of his records to the Senate in April of this year, the records including his original birth certificate was reviewed and this was the result:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-sr511/text
Notice who was present in APRIL, yes Mr. Obama. Did Obama stand up and say,"Ladies and Gentlemen, I to have been asked this question and understand that it is critical that this question be answered openly and honestly before the election to prevent voter fraud and to avoid a crisis of having an ineligible candidate elected to the office of the President."
No, instead Obama and his legal team spend over $500,000.00 sealing all of his records.
The Certification of Live Birth, real or not, is worthless to prove where he was born under Hawaiian law.
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl
"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."
In order to prove where Obama was born he would need to sign a release and pay $12.00 and produce a Certificate of Live Birth, just like stated above.
In the 1960's in Hawaii a resident could have a child in a foreign country, return to Hawaii and register them for birth. That registration would automatically be sent to the local papers as a local birth. Obams's parents knew this. They brought Obama's half sister who was born in Indonesia back and registered her in Hawaii. She can produce an almost identical Certification of Live Birth. Does that prove she was born in Hawaii? No, just like it does not prove Obama was born there.
Why is it important. Again, in the 1960's if the mother was a citizen and the father not, the mother had to live in the US for 5 years past her 14th birthday. Obama if born in Kenya missed that by a few months, and hence he would not be a "natural born citizen". This also does not answer the question of whether he lost his "natural born" status in Indonesia, or how he was able to travel to Pakistan in 1981 when US citizens could not travel there on US passports. Nor does it answer the question if Obama listed his citizenship as Indonesian on his college applications.
This is a major story that the press continues to try and bury or minimize. Look next for the press to start calling for the Senate and the House to pass a similar resolution. But that will require that they first have evidence that Obama meets the "natural born" test. The Senate and the House cannot override the Constitution on this point. It is like being pregnant, you either are or are not a "natural born citizen". So far Obama has sealed all of his records and refused to sign a release and pay $12.00 to answer this question.
Here is what the legitimate birth certificate that Obama could sign a release and pay $12.00 and have the State of Hawaii produce. This would be valid evidence of where he was born. The Certification of Live Birth is not valid as prove of where one is born:
http://snarkybytes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963.jpg
True story: I only have a Certificate of Birth Abroad. I was born on a U.S. Naval base in Japan and there is no birth certificate. I'll have to ask the parents why. Needless to say, I will never be running for President, but I do hope this isn't enough to have me impeached from my position as Editor-in-Chief.
I find it nauseating that these drive-by commenters, like "johnadams" (who would have found your tactics as loathesome as your grammar), are wandering the earth, posting this nonsense.
There's a very fine, deeply underrated film called "The Contender" about presidential politics that is very much worth everyone's time. In the film, a candidate for VP has a sex related scandal in her deep past and refuses to address the issue, even though she could clear matters up easily. Her reasoning? Because the question shouldn't be asked.
We would not be having this conversation if his name was Eric Smith and he was as white as Obama is black.
And yes, Hillary's proxies brought this up months back. More shame on her as a choice for Secretary of state really.
1998: "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog."
2008: "On the internet, everyone knows you're a nutjob with an agenda by profile's one solitary post and your exceedingly long message, copy-and-pasted, no doubt, for the 1,500th time."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS267US267&q=In+order+to+prove+where+Obama+was+born+he+would+need+to+sign+a+release+and+pay+%2412.00+and+produce+a+Certificate+of+Live+Birth&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&ct=unquoted-query-link
People need to understand that you can be a "naturalized" citizen and be a State Senator, a US Senator or a Gobernator. But the highest standard in the land is that of a "natural born citizen". Under the law children born to military personnel overseas have an exception to include them as "natural born", similar to the McCain resolution.
So Marcus if you are planning on a run for President you should be ok. But look at what you have said. You have a Certificate of Birth Abroad. What Obama produced is a short form Certification of Live Birth. If Obama would sign the release and pay the $12.00 he could produce a Certificate (as opposed to Certification) of Live Birth and end this at least as to the question of where he was born.
If Obama spent $12 to answer every idiotic question out there, he could revive the economy.
Thanks for that mikely1. As the press has a blackout on this story the internet is the only place where it is getting accurate coverage. Apparently you and many other people are willing to have Obama wipe his feet on the Constitution as he crosses the threshold of the White House. There is a large part of the population that says that will not happen. This is not something that can simply be ignored. This is a Constitutional requirement.
On his second night in the White House John Adams wrote to his wife Abigail,", "Before I end my letter, I pray Heaven to bestow the best of Blessings on this House and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise Men ever rule under this roof."
I hope Obama has the ethics and integrity to stop the charade and produce the records to show if he does or does not meet the "natural born citizen" test. Again, sign the release and pay the $12.00?
Ha, yeah. Obama must now answer every idiotic fringe right winger who dreams up questions from his mommy's basement. Because obviously if he doesn't address a question, no matter how retarded, then there must be *something* to it. And these mental midgets fancy themselves somehow intellectually on par with the founders. lol..
Obama has not spent $12.00. At last estimate he has spent over $800,000.00 with his legal team sealing his records and sending in three law firms to fight the Berg case that is before the Supreme Court. So, on the one hand sign a release and pay $12.00. On the other hire a fleet of attorneys to seal your records spend over $800,000.00.
If this is an example of his leadership we are in deep trouble. Obama needs to come out from behind the curtain and answer this openly and transparently.
Yes, the bastion of truth, the last refuge of free speech. Well, until someone edits the wiki-constitution.
Well, the previous occupant was using it as toilet paper, so a doormat is a step up.
And it's been fulfilled. Move On. The democrats did in 2000.
And after 8 long years, that will be true.
If this is an example of his leadership we are in deep trouble.
Unless our (ahem) current example of leadership.
If it's a question of a misleading birth certificate vs. the current shit sandwich we're getting from the current admin., I'll take the faulty birth certificate.
Navin, are you late for middle school?Is that an In-and-Out Burget hat?
Again, in simple language. The Constitution requires one to be a "natural born citizen". Obama has not shown that he meets that test. This has been an issue since last February. You are just hearing about it because of the press blackout.
In high school you should get some education on the Constitution. Come back then and we can try and have an adult conversation about it rather than start calling people names like retarded, racist, lunatic, fringe, etc.
Based on John Adams' view of slavery 200 years ago, I think he would have probably been in Grant Park whooping it up a few weeks ago, celebrating a historic moment. I doubt he'd be pleased by dipshits taking his name and quoting him.
Well, there are now 30 law suits around the country, five before the Supreme Court. There will be a similar challenge at the Electoral College on Dec. 15. There will be a challenge at his confirmation hearing in January in the House and the Senate. So eventually Obama is going to be forced to answer this question.
If it turns out he is not eligible he will not be able to assume the office. Anticipate at that point that it will be Hillary/Biden.
Mikey, John Adams was against slavery so please check your facts more carefully. We are talking about a Constitutional standard that Obama and the DNC should have answered fully and openly long before the election. To allow this to happen has placed the country in a very dangerous position. It is Obama and the DNC that is responsible for this mess.
"As the press has a blackout on this story the internet is the only place where it is getting accurate coverage."
Ah yes, the press is blacking out the the story by featuring it prominently in the Chicago Tribune two days in a row. What's next, are you going to complain that America's Next Top Model is keeping you down by refusing to feature tin foil hats on the runway?
As the press has a blackout on this story
Uh, the story is in the press now, and has been for a few days. Just because the press doesn't cover the ranting of every right wing nut (Martin is the big one in this case) doesn't make it a blackout.
Navin, are you late for middle school?Is that an In-and-Out Burget hat?
So original, your brand of insult comedy. If you insist of insults, at least have the class and pride to do something new. What's next: Reminding Navin to take his/her meds?
By the way, the meaning of the phrase "natural-born" is far from settled, as you are trying to imply. If you don't believe me, look up the history and case law. Yes, there was that Kenyan law--at least that seems factual in your post.
As for "johnadams" taking on the name of the Founder, let's all remember that famous John Adams, either personally or through his surrogates, could be a tremendous sleaze ball when he wanted to be. No, the HBO special probably didn't say much about that, but it is true. Review his campaign[s] against Jefferson, for instance. John Adams had a MASSIVE ego, even by the Founders' standards, and could be nasty when that ego was threatened.
What was that about not buying into a conspiracy, Treet?
The only reason it is getting in the press now is to discredit the full page ads citizens have placed in major newspapers around the country over the last few days. These articles are now appearing to discredit the issue as the ads have raised awareness of the issue. The stories contain false and misleading statements.
If America's top model wants to keep me down I am up for that. Send me her phone number please.
Albany, "The Contender?" I haven't seen it in so long I forgot how good that movie was. I LOVE Joan Allen.
And Adams, do you very honestly think that Obama who is himself a constitutional law scholar would really just decide to see if he could pull a fast one on the country and circumvent this whole "native-born" thing. He's only doing what I cannot, not dignifying this slander with a response.
And if you spent as much time preaching about abuses of the Constitution these past eight years as you've been doing now, I'd be surprised if your fingertips haven't been worn down to nubs.
"The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth...a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years"
So assuming every other paranoid, delusional, conspiracy-mad assertion surrounding the facts of Barack Obama's birth proved to be true, he is still a citizen by the standards set forth in US Code.
Adams,
1. Do you put ketchup on your hotdog?
2. Fill in the blank: "588-_____ ... Empire!"
3. Name the intersection at 0 N/S and 0 E/W.
No Google cheating.
Apparently you and many other people are willing to have Obama wipe his feet on the Constitution as he crosses the threshold of the White House. There is a large part of the population that says that will not happen.
Do we know what large part of the population is saying this will not happen? If it's really that large a part of the population, I would think that even a liberal media conspiracy blackout on this topic would fail in the face of the massed voice of the people.
Oh damn...I've gone and thrown some kibble to the troll.
Er Matilda, you again do not have the facts straight about John Adams. It was Adams in his second run for President that Thomas Jefferson hired sleazy writers to publish false and libelous articles about John Adams. Adams refused for ethical reasons to attack Jefferson in the same manner and that cost him the election. Adams was crushed when he found out that it was Jefferson that did that as Adams considered Mr. Jefferson to be one of his best friends.
If you like purchase the letters written between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in their later lives as they are some of the great letters of American history.
Sorry Shame, the law that you cite is the current law. The law that would apply to Obama is as I stated. Again, do some research.
Also, sorry if I offended Mikey. But calling people retarded, racist, or other slurs when trying to discuss an issue in an adult and rational manner is becoming less viable. I was simply trying to find a basis for why he would call people that differ from his view retarded?
At last count there were over 90,000,000 hits on the Berg website. The popular vote was not a landslide for Obama. If the fact were brought out before the election that Obama was not a "natural born citizen" he would not have been elected. Hiding this until after the election has created a crisis.
mikely1 for the win! heh. good one. but don't hold my answer to Number 1 against me, I grew up far away from here....
John, there's no In-and-Out Burger in Chicago.
Just don't ask me to prove it.
To become a US Law Enforcement officer, you must provide "your" birth certificate, be vetted by a board, have not used drugs, have not associated with "anyone" that has professed an objective to overthrow our government, pass a pysc exam and take a polygraph test.
I know because I am applying to become a LEO and have gone through this process.
Obama could not pass these basic requirements and yet he has been elected to lead the most powerful nation on earth. He could not become a COP but he can be our President? This is wrong and must be rectified.
Your article here is sooooooo wrong. It is DISGUSTING the lies on the Internet!
This is an EXTREMELY serious story. We could have rioting this weekend.... or between now and Jan 20th....
WHY?
Because Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen regardless to where he was born. His Father was a Kenya, British SUbject, conferring Dual Citizenship on Obama. Thus, he cannot be Natural Born. To be Natural Born BOTH parents myust be USA Citizens and you must be born in the USA.
Get it from the source.
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
My philosophy has been that if a right-wing nut-job conspiracy is too far out even to be mentioned on Fox News or Rush Limbaugh, then it's too silly even to laugh at. This is just 9/11 truthers of a different ideology.
johnadams = troll, though not a very good one. Certainly not as fun as spook or others I've seen cruise through the site and not worthy of the time of anyone here. He'll probably spout this crap until he gets Sarah and her fake baby into the White House in '12.
(Wow ... I just realized that's almost Biblical. If only Palin's husband had been named Abraham.)
Chalice - aren't you contradicting yourself by saying lies are on the internet but then providing a website as your support? Just sayin' is all.
John and Chalice, when Obama's operatives finally finish their brilliant forgery and unveil it during a prime-time news conference on the first day of Muharram, how do you plan to prevent all of us sheep from believing it's the real thing?
Please tell me you have a plan. Please.
Palin/Chalice 2012!!!!
Obama could not pass these basic requirements and yet he has been elected to lead the most powerful nation on earth. He could not become a COP but he can be our President? This is wrong and must be rectified.
Lead the charge to amend the Constitution. Other than that, your "point" is a red herring. Being elected President is a political process. Becoming a cop (at least ideally) is not. Yeah, life's funny sometimes, I guess, but that's how it is.
"This is an EXTREMELY serious story. We could have rioting this weekend.... or between now and Jan 20th...."
---or the week after that. Or in February...or the 2nd weekend in March....this is EXTREMELY serious people. Serious!!! It's going to happen! This is way too EXTREMELY serious not to take seriously!
There is so much stupid in this thread.
Stock = 1 comment on Chicagoist boards
Chalice = 1 comment on Chicagoist boards
People, I think we're the victims of that terrifying urban menace - the drive-by douche-ing.
Riots this weekend? Gonna have to get my Clash and Kaiser Chiefs queued up, pull on the steeltoes and pads and grab my helmet before I go grocery shopping.
A website hit does not a heart and mind equal. I'm betting the number's somewhere between a game of bridge and a Ted Nugent concert.
Did any previous presidents have to present a birth certificate? I'm not saying that they were not US Citizens/Natural born, but what is the procedure here?
In 2000 when my guy won the popular and lost the electoral I sucked it up and suffered the consequences in silence. Now that the right's guy lost both the popular and electoral they can't deal with it. We had one prez elected by a Supreme Court vote, and look how that turned out.
Not to start any conspiracy theories here but where is the proof that Obama is not an anamatronic robot controlled by Martians through a satellite up link contained in Kim Jong Il's bufant to foment the downfall of humanity?
Those who are claiming that this birth certificate "isn't worth anything" or "doesn't prove anything" are incorrect. It meets the standards set forth by the State Department for proof of birth. It is positive confirmation of his birth in Hawaii. THERE IS NO LAW COMPELLING ANY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE TO RELEASE THEIR 'VAULT' CERTIFICATE!
Secondly, the dual citizenship argument is VERY flimsy. The constitution says NOTHING about it with regard to being a natural born citizen. Donofrio's suppositions are very loopy and not evidence of anything. Plus I think this section of the US Code says it pretty clearly:
USC, Title 8, Section 1401
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1401.html
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
UTV: You forgot to include Stock2600 in your tally.
I wonder what part of Chicago Chalice and JohnAdams are from. I wonder why they didn't bring up this very very very super extremely serious issue many other times.
And now that they have threaten riots, I am really paying attention. I am taking this issue much more seriously now.
Indeed, and I'm surpised they haven't crawled out of their mother's basement to spam like crazy like they did in the related story yesterday.
I spoke to soon, we've got: Johnadams, chalice and Stock2600 today. "Stock" is a good handle for these users considering the posts they make.
I dunno. I submitted about a million tips to Chicagoist on this very topic. They never did anything about it. They are obviously part of the coverup. How much of that $800,000 did you guys get? You probably spent it all on Kanye CDs and drinks at the Violet Hour after Hot Doug's.
Actually....
Leo's case is not about location of birth. His lawsuit conceded Obama is LIKELY born in Hawaii. His lawsuit states that by the definition of NATURAL BORN CITIZEN... a legal term and condition with 400 years of legal precedence... is the issue.
Obama was born a British Citizen and an American Citizen (provided he was born in Hawaii).
As such, he is not Natural Born. He is a "Native Born American" Made a Citizen by USA Law... But a “Natural Born” is given status based on Birth not based on legal status awarded after birth.
To achieve Natural Born you must
1) be born on USA soil
2) Be born of parents with no other "jurisdictional" loyalties... thus... they must be a USA Citizen.
The legal precedence for this definition was written about EXTENSIVELY as it was a HUGE issue for the founding fathers.... It’s meaning has NEVER been contested and to change the definition is to re-write INTERNATIONAL Law... Natural Born is a term with International significance for all Nation's citizens… In fact part of the war of 1812 was about this exact issue with the Brit’s.
Of all the groups... I would like to see yours at least do this topic the JUSTICE it deserves!
This IS a SERIOUS constitutional issue and you need to know if it is not decided tomorrow... Across this country... Literally dozens of suits have been filed. it WILL be contested in the Electoral college AND a CA Law Firm will challenge in court EVERY act Obama takes in office until this issue is resolved....
This wont go away! It WILL spread across the country like wildfire. We NEED Supreme Court resolution!
Who is Obama? Why has he spent $800,000 on Lawyers to protest this rather then simply release his Certificate of Live Birth... The Hospital Certificate.
BTW... No one knows what Hospital Obama was born in....
What is a Natural Born Citizen???????????? You SHOULD know this!
Shame on you for this article's inaccuracies! SHAME!
Navin, try telling 100s of thousands of LEO & Military that a person that isn't qualified to give them orders is going to be their President and see what response you get. Obama can end this but for whatever reason has chosen not to.. WHY??
"Stock" is a good handle for these users considering the posts they make."
I'm pretty sure that the "2600" refers to the version of atari that he/she was playing in said basement.
BTW.... The link I gave is what is referred to as a "Primary News Source" It is Leo's site and he writes in first person about the suit.
I suggest you go there.
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
Also try this.... It is not a primary source... but it is credible.
This describes Natural Born
http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html
God Bless
Chalice
Navin, try telling 100s of thousands of LEO & Military that a person that isn't qualified to give them orders is going to be their President and see what response you get. Obama can end this but for whatever reason has chosen not to.. WHY??
Well, Jim Jones, ret. Marine Gen. and former NATO big shot, has already signed up for the Obama administration, and Adm Mullins, chair of the JCS, has said he is ready to do as ordered by Obama. I doubt we are looking at a mutiny here, no repeat of the '17 Western Front.
EVERYONE is in on the coverup, except for the 200 or so truth-seeking bloggers who blew this "Constitutional Crisis 2008" story right up!
The funniest part is they keep screaming for a document that's already been released! The COLB posted on his website is good enough for the State Department to issue a Passport. It IS proof of birth.
WHY??
Probably because it's a figment of your crackpot club's imagination. I don't usually answer mentally ill people who babble at me on the street either. But only because I can't handle the truth! lol... and I thought fanatical Libertarians were damaged geeks, you guys one up them for sure.
Palin/Chalice 2012!!!!
Thanks dopplerd, Unlike Palin, I am not qualified to run for National Office. However... I do love Palin's spunk!
At least we know EVERYTHING about her childhood... and which hospital she was born in... You'd think a Constitutional Lawyer from Havard could figure out at some point he WILL have to show his birth certificate....
Also try this...it is not a primary source...but it is credible:
http://chicagoist.com/attachments/Marcus%20Gilmer/2008_12_04_obamabc.jpg
this case has a LOT of merit. It has nothing to do with Obama's birth certificate. It has everything to do with the constitution.
If you think about it, the framers of the constitution had dual citizenship, the recognized that and wrote a clause in so they could be president, but just them. Remember, the just battled with British Empire so they were hugely patriotic.
But, by writing that clause in, it prevents anyone going forward from having dual citizenship. Obama's own website says he had (ironically) british citizenship at birth via his father who was from Kenya which was a british colony. The key is what you have at Birth. As such, obama is not considered a Natural Born Citizen but ONLY when it comes to being president of the United States.
The Supreme Court is willing to hear this because it is plainly written in the constitution.
Again, this has nothing to do with Obama's Birth Certificate, it has everythin to do with the constitution. If you care about this country you would hope that we follow the constitution. If you care about the person more than the constitution then we could easily find ourselves with a leader like Hugo Chavez who became more powerful than that countries constitution. And no one wants that so we must honor the constitution.
Yay another mystery spammer user with no posting history!
Being a former Marine, never played games however, I am fairly certain that "atari" must be what you use to enhance your brain power, JAH.
It's interesting when someone provides facts and asks a straight forward question, youall seem to go on defense in lieu of an straight forward answer.
Give me your logic as to why Obama will not put this issue to bed by simply producing a Vault Birth Certificate?
Strange how every conspiracy nutjob thinks their pet cause is going to suddenly sweep the nation like a wildfire of crazy. Have you given up on 9/11, the moon landing, and the perplexing cancellation of "Night Court" so soon? For shame. SHAME!!!
You were never a Marine. Marines have courage and honor.
"At least we know EVERYTHING about her childhood... and which hospital she was born in... "
Her baby, not so much.
Chalice,
Maybe you don't know as much about Palin as you think you do.
http://www.palindeception.com
"Facts" haha! From somebody's blog. That also means that we can refer to Chicagoist comments sections as a source I reckon. Hey I just made a blog that says the opposite of everything you say. I can link to it and everything!
Hey Stock2600,
When are you guys going to provide proof that you aren't a terrorist organization?
The Constitution says NOTHING about dual citizenship with regard to being a natural born citizen. Sorry, but it doesn't. Obama's citizenship in the US was conferred by right of birth and has nothing to do with British Law.
Think about it, Britain could pass a law tomorrow conferring British Citizenship to everyone born in the US and even make it retroactive to time of birth. We could do nothing to prevent such a law. As such, everyone born in the US would have dual citizenship, and following the logic of Donofrio's case, NO ONE would be eligible to be president of the US. Does that make sense?
"Thanks dopplerd, Unlike Palin, I am not qualified to run for National Office. However... I do love Palin's spunk!"
- and Lyndon LaRouche's too, by the look of things
"Navin, try telling 100s of thousands of LEO & Military that a person that isn't qualified to give them orders is going to be their President and see what response you get."
so....what is your opinion of George W. Bush these days when it comes to "qualifications" ?
By the way, if Obama becomes president then anyone on earth can become president as long as they are considered a "USA Citizen". To be president of the united states you have to be a natural born citizen with only one USA citizenship at the exact moment of birth. Obama had two citizenships at birth. He even says it. This means Arnold Schwazzernager can now argue that because of Obama he can run for president. And to get a little more extreme, if Osama Bin Laden were to have a child with a US Citizen, his child would be eligible to run for president.
See the point of our framers of the constitution were that dual citizenship doesn't make you eligible to run for president because your loyalty and allegiance is split.
Very simple stuff to understand.
Stock 2600,
There is no law compelling any presidential candidate to produce their "vault" certificate. The COLB he posted on his website meets the standards set for the by the State Department for proof of birth and would get him a US Passport with no questions. Sorry if it's not good enough for you, but it is good enough for the Federal Government.
In short: HE'S ALREADY RELEASED THE DOCUMENT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. Get it? Just because you jokers keep screaming for it, doesn't change anything.
Seeing how they had someone who wasn't qualified to give orders as their Commander-in-Chief for the past eight years, Stock, I'm guessing the answer to that is they'd maintain silence and carry on with their sworn duty.
Oh, and before you ask, I'm former Navy, six years, honorably discharged, awarded the Navy Achievement Medal and served in Desert Storm.
"The Supreme Court is willing to hear this because it is plainly written in the constitution."
They aren't hearing the case, they're reviewing and deciding whether or not they want to hear it.
the case in front of the supreme court has nothing to do with Obama's orignal long form birth certificate because it is assumed that it says Hawaii. True no one has seen that and true the short form Obama released doesn't prove that he was born in Hawaii, but this case is about the dual citizenship at birth which Obama in his own words says he had.
It should be noted that Obama for the last 6 mos has 3 law firms fighting all the birth certificate cases. Yes $12 could put that to rest why he doesn't do it? Very fishy and doubly fishy seeing how he is the first person in history to not show the vault long form birth certifate. Again, the case in front of the supreme court is not about the birth certificate, it is about the dual citizenship.
Johnon, Stock, John Adams and rest of spammer crew.
Please supply us with proof that you aren't terrorists. I've already asked once but you guys seem to be dodging the question. Hmmmmm....that's interesting......
"They aren't hearing the case, they're reviewing and deciding whether or not they want to hear it."
Thousands of cases are submitted to be heard each year, only a handful does the Supreme Court actually have a closed door review. There is merit to this case thus it will be reviewed and we should all hope that the Justices protect the constitution that protects this country irregardless of whether you voted for Obama or someone else. To say anything less would not be very patriotic nor very American.
Anyone that has not heard about this case until now (it has been around for 6 months) will now realize that the media is completely liberal and will not report anything even though we should know the truth. That is very scary and dangerous to this nation.
Folks, I did not say there was a "law compelling any presidential candidate to produce their 'vault' certificate", I simply stated that Obama can put this issue to bed by doing so,,, why doesn't he?
As for the document he released, it was a "certification of live birth" not a BIRTH CERTIFICATE.
Can anyone of you logically answer my question?
___________________________________
As for Bush, he is the legal Commander in Chief.
____________________________________
As for the "wish I had the guts to be a Marine" bunch, you responded as I would expect. I'm still serving, what are you mental midgets doing for your country?
How are we spammers??
That statement shows that you are not educated and know little about what is going on in this country. You only seem to know what is told to you. Do some homework rather than having someone feed you.
You are the spammer!
Wait, you're still serving? I thought you were a FORMER Marine, Stock.
Now's the part where you make up some other lies.
Bunnybear - Let's just say the Chicagoist Office has several new HDTVs...and that's just in the bathrooms!!!
Johon, Stock, et al: Do you hear it?
Seriously, do you hear it?
Chop ... chop .... chop ...
It's the sound of the Clinton-era black helicopters coming closer, ready to deposit the UN-federal-Nazi-leftist troops on your doorstep.
Watch out, patriots, they have your names ....
I can tell that this is going to be an intelligent debate if and when the mainstream media picks it up.
"Very fishy and doubly fishy seeing how he is the first person in history to not show the vault long form birth certifate."
Really? Do you have proof of this? I've never seen a single presidential candidate's birth certificate until Obama posted his on his website.
The fact remains, The COLB he released IS PROOF OF BIRTH!! Don't you understand that? Not only that but it has been positively confirmed by the State of Hawaii as valid. Show me any other presidential candidate who has MORE supporting evidence of place of birth.
johnon -- if the question before the Supreme Court assumes that he was born in Hawaii, how will $12 put it to rest?
Johnon: "This means Arnold Schwazzernager can now argue that because of Obama he can run for president."
Obama: born in the US of a US mother and a Kenyan father.
Govenator: Born in Austria to Austrian parents. He became naturalized in 1983 at the age of 36.
I am curious where you see the similarities?
You are correct that IF Osama had a child with an American and IF that child was born in the US that child would be able to be constitutionally elected president. I for one find that to be a good thing. Our constitution is so open and inclusive it does not punish the son for the crimes of the father.
It is the Federal Elections Committee to provide "Eligible" candidates. I bet there were a bunch of assumptions made on Obama. I suspect that they discovered this issue way too late in the game. Obama knew at some point he was not qualified to run for President. He was a constitutional Professor. This is simple stuff to understand, so he knew. He rolled the dice that no one would notice.
The birth certificate though may actually be his undoing. At first I thought it said Kenya on it, then I said no, who would be that stupid, but now that he has 3 law firms fighting to keep that long form vault copy secret, I think it may say Kenya, but it doesn't matter so much because the review in front of the US Supreme Court is not about the birth certificate.
Justice will prevail. Buy boy oh boy, did he pull one over on everyone that voted for him!!
"Anyone that has not heard about this case until now (it has been around for 6 months) will now realize that the media is completely liberal"
Pardon me, but did bastion of liberal media Fox News pick up on this six months ago? Are you saying Rupert Murdoch's in on this?
BlueFairlane - This is the GOP's dreaded December Surprise
I'm still waiting for some kind of proof from you spammers that you aren't a terrorist group. It's certainly fishy that you guys won't just offer up some proof. You could really just put this to bed very easily by showing us all some proof.
Marcus, get DHS on the horn.
Funny how none of these conspiracy-shouting new posters who decry the rest of us for not being scholars and patriots (or for being sane - I forget which) have ever, in their years of strenuous scholarship, heard of Occam's razor. I have yet to hear a right-wing conspiracy that doesn't require a shit-ton of logical leaps.
We usually get these types of comments when a Whole Foods opens or a Cheetah Gym closes.
Please come back tomorrow so you can debunk the global left-wing conspiracy of wild fermenting ale.
Marcus,
I thought the "dreaded December Surprise" was something you had to pay a hooker $75 for in Southeast Asia.
As for the "wish I had the guts to be a Marine" bunch, you responded as I would expect. I'm still serving, what are you mental midgets doing for your country?
Speaking out against sending our Marines to fight in ill advised illegal wars of choice that are actually harming our country and sending our economy down the crapper. And also generally contributing to society by not being a mentally ill constitution party type guy.
Johnon,
You need to learn how to evaluate the evidence that is before you. You may want to look into Ockham's Razor for one.
Donofrio's case is about as flimsy as they come. It's already been dismissed twice. He's a hack attorney and a professional gambler. You may want to figure that into your shrewd analyses.
Another mental midget,, you read into things what you want to.
I am still serving my country, not as a Marine but in a border capacity while applying for LEO certification.
Now, can you answer my question or find another reason to pontificate?
Just so everyone is aware. Attorney General Michael Mukasey, the highest ranking law enforcement officer in the US, has a father who was a citizen of the former Russian Empire, now part of Belarus. This red menace is currently pretending to protect us and keep our nation safe from the terrorists and communists. Not only is Mukasey the AG he is also seventh in the line of presidential succession. HE COULD BE PRESIDENT.
Navin - I will if only for fear of being considered UnAmerican.
UTV - touche, sir.
Pontificate? Such big words. They sure do make fake Internet Marines smart these days!
Most fun I've ever wasted an afternoon on.
Thanks, guys.
I'm sure everyone's noticed that these nutjobs can't even settle on one thing that they're after.
Each nutjob seems to have a different stick to measure the legitimacy of their claims.
And _that_ is why Obama isn't "just paying $12 to be done with it." Because the goalposts get moved every time you guys talk about it. Better to fight you early and put this shit down like a rabid dog.
The fact remains, The COLB he released IS PROOF OF BIRTH!! Don't you understand that? Not only that but it has been positively confirmed by the State of Hawaii as valid. Show me any other presidential candidate who has MORE supporting evidence of place of birth.
Go read the press release from Hawaii, all they confirm is that they are holding an original vault form birth certificate. They are not allowed to say what it says on it. That is the question, what does it say on it??? the short form he produced is for purposes of a drivers license, going to school, things like that.
The long form says which country he is born in. If you investigate Hawaiian Law and Vital Statitics procedures you will discover that they always put the birth place on the short form as Hawaii even if you were born somewhere else. If the long form is required then it may not match ths short form, which is one of the issues. If obama paid the $12 then that other issue could be quickly resolved, that yes or no he was born here.
But, the case in the supreme court under review is about Obama having 2 citizenships at birth which is NOT allowed per the constitution.
FOX news did pick up on it but then there was silence. So even FOX news and the other conservative news (Limbaugh, Hannity, etc) all went quiet. And that is why no one should get their news from the news, they should get their news from FACTS.
For example:
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm
It certainly is fishy that you guys won't post the proof I'm asking for. You could put this to bed really quickly. Or do you think my question's silly and irrelevant?
"Serving in a border capacity," Stock? Is that what the Minutemen call it these days?
I've blatantly plagiarized this from a comment over on scienceblogs, but I'm betting the author won't mind.
Just to summarize for those who have difficulty reading,
a) Obama's mother is a US citizen thus her son is too (no matter where he was born)
b) Obama born on US soil (HI) thus he is a US citizen
c) Even if b) is false, a) is true, thus he is a US citizen
d) Short form of birth certificate has always been sufficient to prove citizenship*
e) Birth announcement is further evidence of HI birth
f) HI authorities have confirmed details of birth
g) Relevant Federal authorities have confirmed details of Obama's birth
h) the burden of proof IS ON YOU, unless you can PROVE IT no amount of speculation changes anything
i) YOUR CANDIDATE LOST, GET OVER IT
j) IF (and such a probability is SO LOW as to be non-existent) Obama IS NOT a US citizen - all hail President BIDEN (at least, in your eyes, he's WHITE). -DJ
*None of the other [white] candidates has been set this high a level of burden of proof,
wonder what would raise the bar now? Hmmm, let me think....
"So even FOX news and the other conservative news (Limbaugh, Hannity, etc) all went quiet."
When have those guys gone quiet over anything? If there were even a make-believe shred of substance in this, they'd have been all over it.
Here is another case in front of the supreme court questioning Obama's citizenship. There are 17 others expected to reach the Supreme Court all on the sam exact issue:
Btw, this one was filed by a regular guy, not a constitutional lawyer, however constitutional lawyers are saying that the arguments in this case are 100% solid just like the one up for review tomorrow.
http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a469.htm
Do a search on the guy's name on this case and find out what happened when he first filed it!!
Very interesting what happened.
"But, the case in the supreme court under review is about Obama having 2 citizenships at birth which is NOT allowed per the constitution."
Show me exactly where the constitution says this.
". If you investigate Hawaiian Law and Vital Statitics procedures you will discover that they always put the birth place on the short form as Hawaii even if you were born somewhere else."
Show me exactly what law and procedures you are referring too. I'm sure your research was exhaustive.
onofrio's case is about as flimsy as they come. It's already been dismissed twice. He's a hack attorney and a professional gambler. You may want to figure that into your shrewd analyses.
He must be one hell of a hack lawyer to have something accepted into the US Supreme Court.
"How are we spammers??"
Actually, you're right. You're not a spammer. You're a troll.
johnon --
Now we're getting somewhere!
You said "If you investigate Hawaiian Law and Vital Statitics procedures you will discover that they always put the birth place on the short form as Hawaii even if you were born somewhere else."
Can you give some solid evidence of this -- that the short form might give his place of birth as Honolulu even if he was born in Kenya? It's hard to believe, but I'm open to evidence.
Now, if he was born in Hawaii, he's a natural born citizen -- regardless of what the laws of any other country might say. Isn't that what American sovereignty is all about?
Franklyu.... there are TWO issues...
The actual location of birth as demonstrated in a certified birth certificate(Hospital with Attending Doctor, time, etc...) not a "certificate of live birth"... Something any Citizen can get at the time, in Hawaii within a year of the babies birth.
To many, this is a fringe issue... But intrigue is added because Obama wnet to Pakestan in "81 when USA Passports were not allowed there. So what passport did he use? It is widely thought ... Indonesian.
The second issue which is deep enough to have caused a ar with the Brits... is "Natural Born Citizen".
No.. the Amendment does not say "Dual Citizenship" It relates to a legal term "jurisdiction" and that equates to Dual Citizen"
The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides an additional source of constitutional doctrine stating that birth "in the United States" and subjection to U.S. jurisdiction at the time of birth, entitles one to citizenship.... You cant be Natuaral Born and be "Subject to two Jurisdictions" meaning Dual nations. It is all in the case history.
“ All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the Jurisdiction thereof, are Citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. . .
Please see Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen
Okay... I am done in this thread. Please visit www.plainsradio.com and listen in. Tonight Leo will be on.
Chalice
No one, no one, can keep that big of a secret, and continue to lie about it, without little bits falling off every now and then, to the point where it's so incrediably hard to keep the lie going that it eventually comes to light. No one is that good.
How ridiculous.
"He must be one hell of a hack lawyer to have something accepted into the US Supreme Court."
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Sir, you may insult Obama, you may insult chicago, you may insult me.
But I will be DAMNED if you will insult midgets.
Working for Taco Bell does not give you any extra-legal authority.
I don't care what the night shift guys told you. You only get 3 free chalupas a shift, on medium drink and all the cinnamon twists you can eat.
I was getting more of a Libra vibe off you.
Ok, your ideas are ridiculous, your argument flawed, you lack cohesion, rhetorical skills or even a real point beyond wild accusations and demands for proof based on lack of negative evidence. And your mother wears combat boots, but only in training to be a LEO.
Chalice --
OK, I checked your wikipedia reference, and it says that "it is undisputed that people born in the US are qualified to hold the office of President."
Do we agree on that?
Jesus-freaking-Christ!!!!
Now the right wing nuts are trying to get Hillary Clinton block from being Sec of State on Constitutional grounds!
To correct the posts that say Obama has produced a valid birth certificate let me refer you one more time to what Hawaii has to say about a "CERTIFICATION" of Live Birth, as opposed to a "CERTIFICATE" of Live Birth. Please note the difference between the two capitalized words as it is important:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl
"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."
The CERTIFICATION of Live Birth is not evidence of where you are born due to the laws that were in effect in the 1960's in Hawaii. Obama could not get a drivers license or a passport with what he has produced. That again, would require him to sign a release and pay $12.00.
Here is a site that shows the difference. Note on one the "Certificate" it shows the name of the hospital, the doctors name, and facts that can be verified to prove a child was born in a certain hospital.
So, please take a moment and go to this site, it has the two different forms side by side so that you can easily see the difference.
http://www.peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/Birth_Certificate.htm
wow, i just can't wait to tune in to plainsradio tonight with Chalice. Maybe we should bombard his site with things that we care about.
NO.... You misunderstand.... Keep digging.
i have to admit - i love this stuff. the out of town trolls come out and the usual chicagoist suspects give them beautiful doses of chicago style venom and wit. secretly i love you all. that means you, navin. and you, matilda. and where the hell is spook?
UTV for commenter of the year.
And BTW - my two cents to our lovely guests....Do you actually think that Obama would've gotten NSA/diplomatic clearance without the CIA and DOD doing some serious legwork, that, oh, i don't know, would begin with, you know.... citizenship?
@Chalice:
Or he went across the HUNDREDS OF MILES OF POROUS BORDER. I've been to the region (for terrorism training) and I can assure you, their border security, even at airports, defines lax.
It's Pakistan, with an "I". As in "idiotic" as in this whole mess.
Wikipedia? WIKIPEDIA? You people want to unseat a president and your source of information is WIKIPEDIA.
Come now.
Sorry, there's a giant conspiracy meeting tonight. The Jews (money/media) and the Arabs(Oil) are having a row over Iran and the Masons are all upset about the Aliens using pyramids as landing sites. I'm all booked up.
(Climbs in Black Helicopter, heads towards Mancows place, just to fuck with him)
He must be one hell of a hack lawyer to have something accepted into the US Supreme Court.
NONE of these have been "accepted into the US Supreme Court."
All of them have been kicked up there requesting stays/injunctions against the lower courts rulings.
THE MOST that the US Supreme Court will do is kick these back down to the lower courts to be tried, and even that will be a lengthy process. Don't expect anything to happen before the inauguration.
More likely they will deny the applications.
You can learn more about how the US Supreme Court ACTUALLY works (as to the way you think it works) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedures_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States#Selection_of_cases">here.
"However, the full text of the fourteenth amendment does not mention the phrase "natural born citizen," nor does it address Presidential qualifications. The phrase "natural born Citizen" is not defined anywhere in the Constitution, as is true with most Constitutional terms."
From Wiki
The term Natural Born Citizen has specific legal meaning....
That is what the Supreme Court will have to deal with.
Albany for Vice-Commenter of the Year.
Chalice --
"NO.... You misunderstand.... Keep digging."
Are you talking to me? All I did was quote from the source you provided. How much could I have misunderstood?
If you have a point to make, please make it!
As Obama has not produced a valid Certificate of Live Birth or a Birth Certificate there is no where to start the analysis because no one knows where he was born. That, one more time, would require Obama to sign a release and pay $12.00 and have the State of Hawaii release the original birth certificate that they have announced that they are holding.
Once Obama produces the original birth certificate and his place of birth can be established, then further discussion can be had to determine if he meets the "natural born" test of the Constitution.
So everyone continues to speculate about where Obama was born. Until Obama produces the original birth certficate, or a court orders it produced we are all just speculating. But as this is a Constitutional test of whether Obama can take the oath of office it should have been resolved before the election to avoid this.
The natural born citizen question comes down to this: How was his citizenship conferred, by birth or by statute? If by birth he's natural born, if by statute he was naturalized. His British citizenship by right of blood is irrelavent to the question.
MaineSkeptic:
Read Leo's case and Cort's. They are connected in the Court.
Cort;s case explains it better. Please read it:
http://zapem.net46.net/WrotnowskiStayApp.html
Leo's Case: (Leo filed first and helped Cort to file his, and have asked the Court to consider them together)
http://zapem.net46.net/
You can also find it on his website as a safe download. the site is below and Leo updates it about the progress regularily. He is best to describe.
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
God Bless!
Chalice
In order to be a State Senator, or a US Senator or a Gobernator one only has to be a "naturalized" citizen. So Obama could have been cleared for all of those positions. It is only the President that requires the "natural born" test, and so far no evidence has been presented, including a $12.00 birth certificate, that would prove he meets it. In fact, the more money he spends, the more law firms he hires to fight to keep his past secret, the more it looks like he is hiding something.
Response to SFrazer. Hey, you took the time and so did I.
a) Obama's mother is a US citizen thus her son is too (no matter where he was born)
Being a US Citizen has no bearing (it is assmumed you are a US citizen) on being president of the united states.
B)Obama born on US soil (HI) thus he is a US citizen
ONLY the long form Birth certificate confirms where he is born, NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN IT, Obama has 3 law firms fighting to keep it out of public.
Remember, there are 17 cases around the country on this issue.
c) Even if b) is false, a) is true, thus he is a US citizen
Being a US Citizen is assumed, being natural born citizen as the constitution defines it is not assumed. Having dual citizenship does not make you eligible to run for president.
d) Short form of birth certificate has always been sufficient to prove citizenship*
Obama is the first person to have a situation like this so a long form is needed but only to approve he wasn't born in Kenya.
e) Birth announcement is further evidence of HI birth
Back in the 50's and probably sooner, the news paper would contact the vital stats office and the vital stats would read on the phone the announcement of births which also included the registration of live births. No distinction was made because why would you take away an announcement from someone that maybe adopted a 2 year old child.
I) HI authorities have confirmed details of birth
Hawaii only confirmed that there is a long form vault copy on file. They did not confirm anything else, if you read the actual press release, it says exactly that, if you read news reported off of the press release, it says something completely untrue, so read the actual source.
g) Relevant Federal authorities have confirmed details of Obama's birth
I have never heard this, the democratic party never said this when they were first sued months ago, they had an opportunity to respond but did not.
h) the burden of proof IS ON YOU, unless you can PROVE IT no amount of speculation changes anything
The burden is on the DNC and then the secretary of state of each state to confirm elegibility then the Federal Elections Committee to finally insure all is legit, and if not, the US Consititution to resolve issues that might arise at any step in the process.
Remember too that the DNC sued McCain to prove his natural born citizship, Obama and hilary then mad a proclamation the Senate saying that McCain was eligible to run for prez, this proclamation was a ceremonial thing and has zero legal value.
i) YOUR CANDIDATE LOST, GET OVER IT
This is about the constitution, McCain is also part of this lawsuit, additionally this lawsuit and all 17 others started back in JUNE!! By the way, I didn't vote McCain but when I was a child i learned that the constitution is the most important thing that makes us different and special from other countries in the world, I also know that no one should be higher than it as this is what the founders of our nation wanted.
j) IF (and such a probability is SO LOW as to be non-existent) Obama IS NOT a US citizen - all hail President BIDEN (at least, in your eyes, he's WHITE). -DJ
Constitutional lawyers argue how this would be handled, it would be unprecedented, Bush may be asked to stay in or it would temporarily go to Pelosi, it would not go to Biden as he was part of the ticket that was ineligible to run. Basically it would be ugly. And Obama could have prevented this because he knew he was not qualified seeing how he was a constitituional professor and he has done EVERYTHING to fight this.
Final)None of the other [white] candidates has been set this high a level of burden of proof,
wonder what would raise the bar now? Hmmm, let me think....
Not true at all, several lawsuits were filed to see McCain's birth certificate over a year an a half ago. When he heard of the suits he produced his vault copy long form birth certificate. Obama on the other hand has been duck and covering.
Irregardless of your political affiliation or who you voted for, Obama hiding this has got to concern you. You can't deny that because it means he is not being truthful. We can all understand that.
no cmac it is not.... Natural Citizen means you cannot have dual jurisdictions (dual Citizenships) at Birth.
Obama is a Naturalized Citizen. Citizenship conferred by law and not by the natural state of birth.
I don't get the point of the Hawaiian Homelands thing. They require MUCH more stringent checks to apply for that program than is required for the office of the President.
So yes, they need to know more information that is on the short form. But in order to be President, no one cares about your parents birth certificates, only their citizenship records.
It's a red herring, and not a very artful one, either.
refer to my earlier a/b/c/d/e/f post. In the end, the differences between the two certs DON'T matter.
But I'm sure you guys will keep the good fight going well into 2012. Be sure to stay just as vocal the entire time, please, so we know who to ignore then, too.
No CMAC, if by birth Obama first has to prove if he was born in US territory. His mother was a US citizen, his father a foreigner. So, the laws at that time (and that still apply to Obama) say that Obama's mother had to reside in the US for five years from her 14th birthday. Obama's mother was not 19 when he was born. So if Obama were born in Kenya or anywhere outside US territory he is not a "natural born" citizen.
johnon....
Simply you are wrong.
Lose the emotions. This is a LEGAL STATE.
The Supreme Court will have to define Natural Born. Obama is the first to not be Natural Born.... But the term has a 400 year old history.
That is the fascination here... How will the Court Rule... And they WILL have to take this up.
@johnadams, chalice, mulder, lone gunmen:
I put forward to you, the most fantastic conspiracy of all.
Barack Obama cannot produce a live birth certificate for one simple reason.
He was never born.
That's right, there is no Barack Obama. After the stinging defeat of Kerry in 04 the democratic party used advanced computer technology to create a holographic candidate. Made from a composite of democrats of yore (Kennedy's youth and charm, the socialism of Roosevelt, Harry Truman's grit) and mapped out by industrial light and magic, Obama is nothing more than an elaborate special effect.
No, you say, I've seen him shake hands, hold babies, he must be real.
Actors, animatronic creations and, after the convention, a hastily vat-grown clone creature.
I ask, nay demand, that the ruse of Barack Hussein Obama #235 (Vat number) be revealed for the sham it is. Show use your belly button "Mr. President Elect" What do you have to hide besides your inhuman nature?!?
There is a clear precedent for this. Teddy Roosevelt was a steam-powered robot and Calvin Coolidge was three small children wearing a large coat.
Chalice --
Yes, I've read them, thank you.
But you haven't answered my question. The article that you cited as a source says that "it is undisputed that people born in the US are qualified to hold the office of President."
If you're saying that you shouldn't have cited it, that you didn't realize that it disagrees with you, I understand.
But please don't tell me that I misunderstood -- the article says what it says.
@johnadams, chalice, mulder, lone gunmen:
I put forward to you, the most fantastic conspiracy of all.
Barack Obama cannot produce a live birth certificate for one simple reason.
He was never born.
That's right, there is no Barack Obama. After the stinging defeat of Kerry in 04 the democratic party used advanced computer technology to create a holographic candidate. Made from a composite of democrats of yore (Kennedy's youth and charm, the socialism of Roosevelt, Harry Truman's grit) and mapped out by industrial light and magic, Obama is nothing more than an elaborate special effect.
No, you say, I've seen him shake hands, hold babies, he must be real.
Actors, animatronic creations and, after the convention, a hastily vat-grown clone creature.
I ask, nay demand, that the ruse of Barack Hussein Obama #235 (Vat number) be revealed for the sham it is. Show use your belly button "Mr. President Elect" What do you have to hide besides your inhuman nature?!?
There is a clear precedent for this. Teddy Roosevelt was a steam-powered robot and Calvin Coolidge was three small children wearing a large coat.
Chalice --
Yes, I've read them, thank you.
But you haven't answered my question. The article that you cited as a source says that "it is undisputed that people born in the US are qualified to hold the office of President."
If you're saying that you shouldn't have cited it, that you didn't realize that it disagrees with you, I understand.
But please don't tell me that I misunderstood -- the article says what it says.
http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined. html
No Johnadams, read the above link... Regardless of where born, he is NOT a Natural Born Citizen. He is a Naturalized Citizen.
Chalice
I only wish Teddy was still around. Where is the Bull Moose Party when we need them.
By right of blood as you say is pertinent because at birth he was given citizenship to the British Empire.
Think about what the framers of the constitution were thinking at the time (this is what the Justices do), they wanted to be their own country and they didn't want ANY outside influence.
Now bring it forward 200+ years, Obama who had British citizenship may (or may not) be partial to another country other than the United States. What if Obama had citizenship to say Iran when he was born. Would that concern you? It is no different except that England is friendly to us. If England was no longer a country then I suppose this case would never have had any merit.
MainSkeptic
I would state the article contridicted that statement by the very listing of the 4 cases before the courts ... Disputing that very statement.
Wiki... is a Public Source, we all consider, but don't accept as gospel. I posted it to help provide insight.
No slight meant to you tho, it is a complicated subject. I am sooooooooo excited to see how this unfolds. It is incredibly exciting and offers a chance for Americans to really consider what makes us unique .....
God Bless and good night. I am headed to www.plainsradio.com to hear the shows for tonight. Leo will be on!
Chalice
Marcus, can you figure out some Chicago tie-in to the Moon landing or Roswell or fluoridation and queue it up for tomorrow. Let's make the fun last!
@johnadams, chalice, mulder, lone gunmen:
I put forward to you, the most fantastic conspiracy of all.
Barack Obama cannot produce a live birth certificate for one simple reason.
He was never born.
That's right, there is no Barack Obama. After the stinging defeat of Kerry in 04 the democratic party used advanced computer technology to create a holographic candidate. Made from a composite of democrats of yore (Kennedy's youth and charm, the socialism of Roosevelt, Harry Truman's grit) and mapped out by industrial light and magic, Obama is nothing more than an elaborate special effect.
No, you say, I've seen him shake hands, hold babies, he must be real.
Actors, animatronic creations and, after the convention, a hastily vat-grown clone creature.
I ask, nay demand, that the ruse of Barack Hussein Obama #235 (Vat number) be revealed for the sham it is. Show use your belly button "Mr. President Elect" What do you have to hide besides your inhuman nature?!?
There is a clear precedent for this. Teddy Roosevelt was a steam-powered robot and Calvin Coolidge was three small children wearing a large coat.
"No CMAC, if by birth Obama first has to prove if he was born in US territory. His mother was a US citizen, his father a foreigner. So, the laws at that time (and that still apply to Obama) say that Obama's mother had to reside in the US for five years from her 14th birthday. Obama's mother was not 19 when he was born. So if Obama were born in Kenya or anywhere outside US territory he is not a "natural born" citizen."
Well that's good, cause we know without a doubt that he was born in Hawaii as his verified, certified COLB proves to the satisfaction of the Federal Government's own standards.
Albany...
Your humor once was uhhum... twice... just stupid!
I actually researched this. I am probably like you in that I don't believe in conspiracy theories so I want to see it for myself. If someone says there is a martian in my back yard, I am going to go check it out and not run first. I've come to realize that the Obama campaign and the media made us realize one thing by mistating or ignoring the facts or simply not reporting on it.
For example, everyone says Obama is a very smart guy. I agree but when it comes to schooling nobody knows that. He never released those records either. It is known that he was the first President of the Harvard Law Review never to write an actual article.
On Bill Ayers the terrorist, Obama first said he didn't know him, then we find out they live right near everyone. I still can't figure out how this country voted for him on that alone??? Did everyone forget we were attacked by terrorist 7 years ago??
Back to your question, do some searches and you will find it, I'll look to see if I bookmarked it.
"As Obama has not produced a valid Certificate of Live Birth or a Birth Certificate"
I see the goalposts have been moved again.
Prove to me that the Certificate of Live Birth provided is not valid.
I know, I can't compete with you for sheer comededic power.
You are "A Glenn Beck Comedy Christmas" to my "Bill O'Reilly's Improv-olympics"
"Did everyone forget we were attacked by terrorist 7 years ago??"
Wait, what???
whoa, whoa, whoa here ... Barack Obama is black? and he was never born?
what the hell is going on here!? Where is Al Gore? Who are these fugitives on my doorstep? Where have all the cowboys gone? I invented the dick joke.
If someone says there is a martian in my back yard, I am going to go check it out and not run first.
Whereas I would not bother going to check at all.
On Bill Ayers the terrorist, Obama first said he didn't know him, then we find out they live right near everyone.
So we are saying that the fact that they live near each other means they know each other. A friend of mine was in one of the classes Ayers taught. Does that mean she is a threat to our country? At least when they come for her she show that she lives on the opposite side of town.
You're drifting from your original point and I believe it's diluting your argument. See I thought all of this was being done to ensure that our constitution was being honored and not out of anything specifically against Obama. Now I'm not so sure. Unless you can show me where it says in the constitution that you can't live in the same neighborhood as a terrorist.
i love that now the "obama isn't a natural born citizen" proponants are arguing amongst themselves about why he isn't a natural born citizen.
i also love the multiple statements asserting he isn't a natural born citizen, which have no supporting proof what so ever.
the whole thing smacks of desperation and xenophobia and/or racism. never before have people called for such proof of citizenship. people clearly can simply not accept the results of a democratic election.
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com
This is the official website of Leo Donofrio the lawyer who filed the case in the supreme court.
food for thought...
Even if you were born in the oval office it does not make you a natural born citizen per the constitution which dictates who is eligible to run for president.
For example, everyone says Obama is a very smart guy. I agree but when it comes to schooling nobody knows that. He never released those records either. It is known that he was the first President of the Harvard Law Review never to write an actual article.
On Bill Ayers the terrorist, Obama first said he didn't know him, then we find out they live right near everyone. I still can't figure out how this country voted for him on that alone??? Did everyone forget we were attacked by terrorist 7 years ago??
And here you see with these tired ole memes that this is all just about typical crybaby right wing sour grapes rather than the phony concern for constitutional law that we see from these guys.
http://www.usjf.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=471&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
"He must be one hell of a hack lawyer to have something accepted into the US Supreme Court.
NONE of these have been "accepted into the US Supreme Court."
All of them have been kicked up there requesting stays/injunctions against the lower courts rulings.
THE MOST that the US Supreme Court will do is kick these back down to the lower courts to be tried, and even that will be a lengthy process. Don't expect anything to happen before the inauguration.
More likely they will deny the applications."
Man, I keep saying this and no one listens. These trolls just see the word "supreme court" and immediately start thinking their issues are legit.
This case just applied for Cert (LIKE HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS OF OTHER CASES), and thus far it's still just a lower court decision that means nothing.
i step away for a moment and the tin foil hats are going at it amongst themselves?
nice work, friends. done and done.
You done with your kool-aide yet CL?
Navin,
if your wife kept going over to your male neighbors house, wouldn't that concern you?
By the way your wife just left....
"Because Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen regardless to where he was born. His Father was a Kenya, British SUbject, conferring Dual Citizenship on Obama. Thus, he cannot be Natural Born. To be Natural Born BOTH parents myust be USA Citizens and you must be born in the USA."
-There is no constitutional definition of "natural born" and thus you cannot say this as a justifiable fact.
-There is no provision about dual citizenship, neither allowing it nor prohibiting it when it comes to the office of the presidency.
-The only place where they mention being a natural born citizen as being through "soil" (i.e. dependent on the geographical location) is in the fuckin' Dred Scott decision. WHICH WAS OVERTURNED AND THERE WILL BE A SHIT STORM IF THE COURT BRINGS BACK THE FUCKIN' DRED SCOTT DECISION.
Bunnybear - Already on the Chicago-moon landing connection. Did you know it was filmed at WGN?
Navin,
if your wife kept going over to your male neighbors house, wouldn't that concern you?
By the way your wife just left....
I haven't installed a drunk and incoherent decoder on my computer yet. Can you try that again?
Bunnybear - Already on the Chicago-moon landing connection. Did you know it was filmed at WGN?
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/obama/
http://chicagoist.com/2008/12/04/obama_birth_certificate_case_heads.php
"You done with your kool-aide yet CL?"
First of all, it's Kool-Aid (there is no "e")
and secondly, you know shit about Constitutional interpretation or Supreme Court procedure.
Chalice: I think you commenting on to many blogs and pasted the wrong link or you are attempting to send Chicagoist spinning into a rift in the space-time continuum by linking to the page you are posting on.
Any one else expecting a Free Republic link?
let's just let them go, eh friends?
seriously. funny left the room a few hours ago.
and btw - cheetah gym in andersonville still sucks.
Maybe these guys can find some sekrit clause that forbids people with non-WASPy exotic names from being President.......
WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON
O_______________O
What we're witnessing here is the implosion of the republican party.
It's funny how they just don't learn. First they tried with the Barack HUSSEIN Obama crap.
Then it was the "pallin' around with terrorists" canard.
He won the election and they're still trying to go down that same road.
They think that just because they are ignorant enough to fall for the inconsequential, that everyone else will too.
I, for one, support them wholeheartedly. The more they bleat, the worse it will be for them in the end. They lose more and more of the intelligent ones that are left in the republican party every day.
Soon, the only ones that will be left are the looney-tune, bible beaters in the south. This is their collapse, and we get to witness it. What we are seeing here today in this thread is an internet/blog version of a nervous breakdown. It's a sideshow that we get to watch for free.
Carry on wing nuts!!
Ingrid,
Did you have the same take on this situation when it was the Hilary-backers who brought up this birth certificate brouhaha in the first place months ago?
I like snow.
I would just like to say "THANK YOU' so much for
your humbleness and for your apology! Really, this was a wonderful article to read! You can bet
that I will be a follower of your news based on the fact that I believe you are pure in heart and willing to be open minded and print the truth! God bless you for your strength and honesty!!
Respectfully
Fairflight
Ahh, how the Obamanites are insult slinging once again. Yes that's the bright educated thing to do.
First of all, this is not, and let me repeat, not about race. I'm sick to death of hearing we're racist because we ask or don't agree with something to do with Mr. Obama.This issue is about the Constitution and the Constitution only. This issue could have been cleared up long ago had Mr. Obama submitted his vault long birth certificate, but he's refused to do this and has called on a huge legal team to keep him from having to show this document. Oh, and we're not talking about the forged COLB on his site here people. Another point, Hawaii has not said that Obama was BORN in Hawaii, but that they do have his birth certificate on file in Hawaii.
Second, Sen. McCain did not win the election, no he did not, but Sen. McCain did show his long birth certificate so check your facts before you start with the 'I bet if McCain this or that' crap.
JohnAdams below seems to have the facts straight here. Instead of throwing insults and calling people conspiracy nuts or other names why don't you Obamanites simply look up the information for yourselves? I mean it is out there if you can work up the effort it would take to do it.
Is it so hard for this man to produce a simple vault, long birth certificate and is it so hard for you to suspend your idolization long enough to get the facts straight?
If Mr. Obama decides to stop hiding everything about himself and unseal his records for the American citizens then this whole issue could be put to rest people. You, as Americans, have to show a BC for many different reasons, so are you going to tell me that Mr. Obama is better than you are and doesn't have to, to hold the highest office in our land? Somehow I still have the slightest hope that you will all open your eyes and just ask the man you are so hellbent on getting into office no matter the cost, why he doesn't feel that the people who supported him and those who did not aren't important enough to show a simple document. You know-- WE THE PEOPLE.
It isn't about race; it isn't about party
It's about law and the constitution. Go to Factcheck and to Fight the Smears... you will see for your own eyes that Bam Bam has admitting to having dual citizenship.
You can't have dual citizenship and be Natural born!
He has not only sealed his records but has spent over $500,000 to protect a $12 document...He has 3 law FIRMS not lawyers... law FIRMS protecting everything he wants to keep secret.
Excerpt from Factcheck> In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
If we toss the laws what do we have? chao's..
Don't you want a legitiment President?
Just release the original BC and the other documents..and get it over with...
You should be asking yourself WHY is doesn't rather than he has been asked to.
the previous two posts are brought to you by Reynolds Wrap.
no one here believes your shit, guys. more compelling arguments have been made by the other side. your arguments have been dismantled by people who have a better grasp on constitutional law then you do.
stop wasting your time. really. we don't believe you. we all think you're mentally ill. in fact, the longer your posts get, the more mentally ill we think you are.
now, back to those parking meters!
tc3 --
Ummm, it looks that way -- nobody took it seriously then and nobody takes it seriously now!
Nonsense is nonsense, whatever the source.
I would just like to say "THANK YOU' so much for
your humbleness and for your apology! Really, this was a wonderful article to read! You can bet
that I will be a follower of your news based on the fact that I believe you are pure in heart and willing to be open minded and print the truth! God bless you for your strength and honesty!!
Respectfully
Fairflight
celerysalt wins. hands down. thanks for making me laugh out loud. intentionally, anyway.
I'm going to say this one more time. The Constitution does not give a definition to a "natural born citizen." The Constitution does not say whether the president could or could not have dual citizenship. That goes for while he's in office or if he ever had it in the past.
Here is what it says when it comes to being a "natural born citizen":
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the united states, at the time of the adoption of this consitution, shall be eligible to the office of the presidence; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and be forteen years a resident within the United States."
It is ambiguous and undefined....but that being said, let's look at a few common sense issues:
1. Obama got all of the qualifications without any problems long before when he started campaigning.
2. I'm going to say that by virtue of the fact that the McCain camp didn't bring it up that it was not an issue. They probably employed many people to look into facts about Obama.
I'm going to suspend reality for a second and say this:
If there was an issue it would not be solved before January 20th, 2009.
It really is entertaining on one level to watch the complete & willful denial of evidence these "release the vault certificate" jokers present. They will just repeat over and over that it is a fake with nothing but a bunch of self proclamed experts on youtube examining the scanned digital version of the document as "proof." Somehow that outweighs analysis of the actual physical document and positive verification from the State of Hawaii as to it's validity. Astounding! Furthermore the COLB presented by Obama meets the standards of the State Department for proof of birth to receive a US Passport. But that's not good enough! They must see the vault certificate! Only that will satisfy their new found love of the constitution! Nevermind that no law anywhere compels him to do so and that he's already met the burden of proof. They just keep screaming for it and scream coverup when nobody listens. They are very loud indeed.
Then they read a bunch of self-referential suppostion and platitudes on Natural Born Citizenship and suddenly they're all fervent defenders of the constitution and know with absolute certaintly that you can't possibly be a dual citizen at birth and be eligible for the presidency. And they cite all these websites as "proof" when it's nothing more than a lawyer's supposition.
Most of them are confused about what the issues actually are. They keep saying "release the vault certificate" when the lawsuit at hand has nothing to do with it. What do you think will happen when the supreme court tosses this thing? Will that satisfy them? No, because they have "proof" and obviously the supreme court is in on the whole coverup or afraid of the consquences or what have you. This story is writing itself, regardless of the facts.
well... you can all delude yourself and enjoy the fog.
The Constitution is the document of this land. Dual Citizens at birth ARE NOT NATURAL BORN.
While the Constitution does not define Natural Born... it was a phrase known and accepted in International Law.
I cant wait till tomorrow!
CL....
You all drink Kool-Aid... and wow... what an intellect you are about dropping that "e"... makes you more credible on this topic that you know how to spell your drink of choice! Congrats!
As per My knowledge.... I am just me... not MSM, not a pro blogger... But I am engaged on this subject and you can bet, I dont play with conspiracy theories...
The original post here said it all.... "Boy, were we wrong."
All Obama has to do..... The Harvard trained Constitutional Lawyer... He needs to produce a valid BC and he needs to answer the questiojn of his 1981 travel to Pakestan.
How could any of you have been so Kool-drunk to vote for this creep?
God Bless!
Chalice
Man, Obama would have been laughing all the way to the White House on this one. He sure fooled us all. And he'd have gotten away with it too--if it weren't for those pesky internet kids.
http://www.obamacitizenshipfacts.org/
THis is an excellent summary!
This is my first post, let me admit that. I'm a registered Republican. I voted for McCain because I thought, and still think, he would be better equipped to face threats of national security and foreign policy.
However, I have to say that this is the part of my party that makes me shameful of where we are today. Arguing against this mans citizenship is absolutely absurd. And what kind of danger does this pose to the country. NONE.
Just like Al-Queda is a VERY SMALL sect of Muslims, please ignore these "fundamentalists" as I hope you ignore the communist-hippie-nader-supporters on your own end of things.
The people supporting this are a VERY SMALL group of extremists and conspiracy-theory nuts. The same type of people from the other side who said Bush planned 9-11. Just ignore them and argue the real issues with real people.
I'll go you one further, dodger, and say all these truthers, at least on this site, are the same guy signed up under multiple logins and registries in order to give the illusion of strength in numbers. That's why none of them have ever posted here before today, that's why they all sound the same using almost the same words to argue the same set of make-believe facts over and over and over and over. (He even got into an argument with himself for a while, which is weird, but hey, I'm not one to judge.) He probably wears a lot of camoflage and lives in a bunker-type basement beneath his mom's house in someplace like Pahrump, Nevada or Barstow, California (based on the In-&-Out Burger reference some 170 comments ago). He's a really sad character with no life, (said the guy on Chicagoist at 12:30 at night).
I just hope he comes back tomorrow so we can all have this much fun again.
Let's clear something up. Virtually all (if not all) Health Departments no longer issue "original certificates." What they do issue are certified records of birth laser-printed on special paper that contains a border, a seal, and most-importantly a watermark. Additionally each certification bears a unique number. While there are no standard forms, they all more or less conform to this standard. While many of you may possess the photocopy of your original certificate with such factors as number of live births, birth country of parents, name of hospital, time of birth, physician's signature, etc., this is no longer done. I was born in New York City and last year I obtained a Certification of Birth that lists my name, my father's name, my mother's maiden name, my date of birth, and a statement to the effect that it is a certification that there exists an original birth record. I used my certificate along with my driver's license to obtain a U.S. passport. No problems encountered.
Don't allow morons, right-wingers, and fascists confuse you. The birth certificate is genuine.
"The Constitution is the document of this land. Dual Citizens at birth ARE NOT NATURAL BORN."
This is incorrect. If you were born in U.S. territory, even if both your parents were illegally here, you are a natural born U.S. citizen. If your mother is in the military and you are born anywhere in the world where your mother is stationed, you are a natural born U.S. citizen even if you were born in Tibet.
I wanted to conclude this thread by advising the handful of you (or the one of you with multiple crappy aliases, as it were) "patriots" to head down to Northalsted, buy one of the many latex appendages on sale, dip it in broken glass ("Kickboxer" style), and go to town on it. Then I remembered that you don't know dick about Chicago.
Won't someone think of the children?
Actually... I am ONE poster and I LIVE IN CHICAGO.... AND I HAVE VOTED DEMOCRAT ALL MY LIFE>>> YOUR A FREAKING DUFAS.
Read this.... Fresh off the Net.
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
This is NOT fringe or wierdos... We have a Constitutional Crisis on our hands so I hope you all learn about it before you start all that judgement crap.
God Bless!
COUNTRY FIRST COUNTRY FIRST COUNTRY FIRST COUNTRY FIRST COUNTRY FIRST COUNTRY FIRST
It's in Our Constitution....
Leo, the author of the case before the Supreme Court… wrote this…
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/
“PRESIDENT?” CHESTER ARTHUR et al - WHY THEY AREN’T PRECEDENT FOR OBAMA’S ELIGIBILITY
Posted in Uncategorized on December 5, 2008 by naturalborncitizen
December 5, 2008 - 5:34 am
This essay will discuss the eligibility of every President who had parents born abroad. As long as the parents had the future President on US soil after they became citizens, then that person is a natural born citizen.
Every President born before the adoption of the Constitution was eligible because of the grandfather clause of Article 2, Section 1 :
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;
JAMES BUCHANAN
The first President we must examine then was James Buchanan, 14th President of the United States. He was born on April 23, 1791 in Mercersburg, Pennsylvania. He just missed out on the grandfather clause as the Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787, by the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. Buchanan was also the only President from Pennsylvania and the only President never to marry.
Both his parents, James Buchanan and Elizabeth Speer, emigrated to the United States from Ireland in 1783. It was an interesting year for the United States as the Treaty of 1783 was signed between the US and Great Britain. Colonists chose to be United States citizens and by virtue of the Treaty, Great Britain recognized those former subjects as United States citizens.
Before the Constitution, United States citizenship was conferred on citizens by the States. When the Constitution was ratified, each citizen of a state became a citizen of the United States. No formal naturalization was needed.
On June 21, 1788 the Constitution was ratified. The Buchanans were citizens of Pennsylvania and therefore citizens of the United States. When their son James was born in Pennsylvania he was therefore a natural born citizen, born on United States soil to two US citizen parents.
ANDREW JOHNSON
Johnson, our 17th President, was born in Raleigh, North Carolina on December 29, 1808. Wiki has this on his father:
Jacob Johnson was born circa 1778. Some sources indicate that he was born in Newcastle, England and sailed to America around 1795, but other sources indicate that he was born in Raleigh, North Carolina, and that it was his grandfather (and possible namesake) who sailed to North America from England. Historian Rev. Nash A. Odom writes that “In the year 1760, Peter Johnson, migrated from Kintyre, Scotland to North Carolina with his large family and settled in Cumberland County. The preaching instinct broke out again and a number of the Johnsons became ministers. One was the father of Jacob Johnson, who moved to Raleigh, North Carolina and was the father of President Andrew Johnson.” Author Billy Kennedy writes that Jacob’s father, named Andrew, a Presbyterian, came to North Carolina about 1750 from Mounthill, Ireland.
The weight of authority is that Jacob was born in the US. But even if the other sources were correct, he would have been in the US for 13 years before Andrew was born. The Naturalization act of 1795 called for a five year residence before Naturalization. The Act was modified in 1798 to a 14 year requirement, but then the Naturalization act of 1802 it was put back to five years.
Jacob Johnson also served as a militia Captain of Muster Division 20 and was the city constable. I can find no allegations that Jacob wasn’t a citizen when Andrew was born. (Jacob Johnson died from complications caused by his heroic saving of a friend’s life.)
Andrew Johnson’s mother was born in North Carolina in 1782.
So, Andrew Johnson - born in North Carolina to two US citizen parents, hence - natural born citizen.
[Chester Arthur would be next, but I shall save him for last.]
WOODROW WILSON
Born December 28, 1856 - the 28th President, born in Staunton, Virginia.
Wilson’s mother was from Carlisle, England. His father was a US citizen from Ohio. Wilson’s mother gained US citizenship when she married his father according to a congressional Act of February 1855, which stated,
“any woman who might lawfully be naturalized under existing laws, married, or shall be married to a citizen of the United States, shall be deemed and taken to be a citizen.” [Act of February 10, 1855, 10 Stat. 604, section 2]
This was called derivative citizenship. This act was enacted in 1855. Woodrow Wilson was born in December 1856. He was born in the US, both parents were US citizens - natural born citizen.
HERBERT HOOVER
Hoover was born in Iowa, 1874. He was the 31st President. His father Jesse was from Ohio, a US citizen. His mother Hulda Minthorn was from Ontario, Canada. They were married in 1870. According to the 1855 act, which was in effect until 1922, Hoover’s mother became a US citizen automatically when she married Jesse.
So, Hoover was born in the US, both parents were citizens - natural born citizen.
CHESTER ARTHUR …or the strange lies of our 21st President
And here we have a very interesting story full of intrigue. Arthur became President when one of his supporters shot President Garfield with an exclamation of joy that Arthur would now be President.
More relevant to our discussion is that during his Vice-Presidential campaign, Hoover was accused by an attorney named Arthur Hinman of having been born abroad. But there was absolutely no merit to the charge. Hinman first accused Chester of being born in Ireland, then he switched his claim to Canada. Hinman, a new York lawyer, wrote an accusatory pamphlet under the heading, “How A British Subject Became A President of the United States.”
The definitive biography on Chester Arthur is “Gentleman Boss” by Thomas Reeves. It’s an exhaustive reference chock full of notes. Many of the blanks in Chester Arthur’s legend were filled in by this book which utilized interviews with family members and authentic documents like the Arthur family Bible. It was a necessary work since old Chester Arthur was a very wily protector of his strange history. Also, Chester Arthur burned all of his papers. (See page 2365.)
“Gentleman Boss” establishes, on page 4, that Chester Arthur’s father William was born in Ireland, 1796, and emigrated to Canada in 1818 or 1819. His mother Malvina was born in Vermont and his parents eloped to Canada in 1921. They had their first child, Regina in Dunham, Canada on March 8, 1822.
THE MYSTERY - When was William Arthur naturalized? I don’t know. The only reference historian I know who ventured a date said it was 1843, but that historian also said he got that from “Gentleman Boss” and I could not find such a reference in the book. I spent a few hours with the book today. I examined every reference to William in the index and also went over the early years with a microscope. No reference to the naturalization date.
FACTS
By no later than 1824, the Arthur family had moved to Burlington, Vermont. Their second child Jane was born there on March 14, 1824. Chester Arthur was their fifth child, and he was born on October 5, 1829. Reeves established these facts (and the correct date of Chester Arthur’s birth) from the Arthur family Bible.
It gets interesting here because of the Naturalization Act of 1802. That act set the requisite of five years residence in the United States for those who wanted to become naturalized citizens. Doing the math, we know that William Arthur had moved to Vermont no later than 1824. Chester was born in October 1829. So if William had taken action on being naturalized in his first year, then he very well could have been a US citizen when Arthur was born. William studied law and taught school before he became a preacher in 1827, so he should have been familiar with the process of acquiring citizenship.
CHESTER ARTHUR’S FIRST LIE
From “Gentleman Boss”, page 5… regarding Chester’s birthday:
“…on October 5, 1829, Malvina Arthur gave birth to her fifth child. (The traditional date 1830 is incorrect. Arthur made himself a year younger, no doubt out of simply vanity, some time between 1870 and 1880…)”
Perhaps it was out of vanity, but perhaps he had a more sinister motive. Reeves establishes Chester changed his date in the decade of his most serious political career, 1770-1780. Chester was also a very skilled New York lawyer. If he had a problem with his father’s naturalization date, then moving back his birthday by a year might have fixed it. We will revisit this later. Suspend judgment for now.
CHESTER ARTHUR’S SECOND LIE
And this is where our villain Hinman returns. But was he a villain to Arthur? Hinman made a big stink in various New York publications alleging that Chester Arthur was born abroad as a British subject, much like those who are trying to say Obama is not a US citizen. It wasn’t true. Chester was born in Vermont. But this scandal had the effect of keeping public attention off of the issue of whether Chester Arthur’s father William was a British subject which would have made Chester a British subject “at birth” even though he was born in Vermont.
Does any of this sound familiar?
From “Gentleman Boss”, page 202 and 203:
“…Hinman was hired, apparently by democrats, to explore rumors that Arthur had been born in a foreign country, was not a natural-born citizen of the United States, and was thus, by the Constitution, ineligible for the vice-presidency. By mid-August, Hinman was claiming that Arthur was born in Ireland and had been brought to the United States by his father when he was fourteen. Arthur denied the charge and said that his mother was a New Englander who had never left her native country — a statement every member of the Arthur family knew was untrue.”
His mother had lived in Canada with her husband and had her first child there. This was a blatant lie.
CHESTER ARTHUR’S THIRD LIE
In the the Brooklyn Eagle newspaper, an article interviewing Chester Arthur about Hinman’s accusations was published on August 13, 1880. In that article, Chester Arthur defended himself as follows:
“My father, the late Rev. William Arthur, D.D., was of Scotch blood, and was a native of the North of Ireland. He came to this country when he was eighteen years of age, and resided here several years before he was married.”
This was another blatant lie. His father emigrated from Ireland to Canada at the age of 22 or 23. William Arthur didn’t come to the United States until sometime between March 1822 - when his first child was born in Dunham, Canada - and March 1824 - when his second child was born in Burlington, Vermont. The youngest he could have been when he came to Vermont was 26. So, a third blatant lie.
CONCLUSIONS
I think we’ve discovered a bit of esoteric history tonight. I’ve not seen this analysis elsewhere.
It looks like Chester Arthur had something to hide. He burned all of his papers (but the family Bible survived). He moved his age back a year. I think vanity is a poor excuse. Only one year? He lied about his mother’s time in Canada. He lied about his father’s time in Canada.
By obscuring his parents’ past lives and time in Canada, he would have clouded all attempts at researching when his father naturalized. Think about the time period. He ran for Vice-President in 1880. His father, being a law student, and moving his family to the United States, would have probably naturalized as soon as possible. But it might not have been soon enough to make old Chester a natural born citizen.
As discussed above, the time frame between William Arthur’s five year residence requirement being met and the day Chester was born were probably very close.
Then when Chester runs for VP, Hinman comes along basically demanding to see Chester’s birth certificate to prove he was born in the United States. This causes a minor scandal easily thwarted by Chester, because Chester was born in Vermont…but at the same time the fake scandal provides cover for the real scandal.
William Arthur was probably not a naturalized citizen at the time of Chester Arthur’s birth, and therefore Chester Arthur would have been a British subject at birth and not eligible to be Vice President or President.
Regardless, Chester Arthur lied through his teeth about his father’s emigration to Canada and the time his mother spent there married to William. Some sixty years later, Chester lied about all of this and kept his candidacy on track. Back then it would have been impossible to see through this, especially since Arthur’s father had died in 1875 as a United States citizen. Had anybody been suspicious, Arthur having changed his age by a year could have protected his eligibility. And without knowledge of his father’s time in Canada, researchers in 1880 would have been hard pressed to even know where to start.
Because Chester Arthur lied about his father, any precedent he might have set for Obama is nullified completely as it appears Chester Arthur may have been a usurper to the Presidency. Eventually we will probably unearth William Arthur’s naturalization records.
While he did move around alot, he was a resident of Fairfield, Franklin County Vermont, between 1829 when Chester was born, and 1832 when Malvina Almeda was born. This is the most likely time period for his naturalization. The official word from Franklin County was a fast, “We don’t have naturalization records for William Arthur.”
I have a strong feeling we’ve uncovered the truth about Chester Arthur. Looks like he was the only ineligible President we’ve ever had. And he got away with it through his lies. But the light has a way of finding the darkness.
It’s no precedent to follow.
Leo C. Donofrio
OK Marcus, now these people have gone past trolling to spamming.
CL - I'm on it.
Everyone - no more of this copy & pasting of insanely long articles. Post links or keep your excerpts short. For the purposes of allowing a dialogue, I'm not shutting the thread down, but if you can't summarize it in your own words, then paste a link or I will delete the comment. Repeated violations and you will get the ban stamp.
I hope Chalice wasn't trying to say "doofus," all misspelled and in all caps and such. And the Natural Born Citizen isn't any less crackpot the 67th time it's linked as opposed to times 1-66. Also a good rule: if you have to say you aren't "fringe or weirdos," then you are most likely a fringe-dwelling weirdo.
In less than 24 hours this wackjob named Chalice posted 23 times! On Chicagoist, no less! It's like pissing into the wind. Hilarious.