Chicagoist: Santo Shafted Again

ReverendSlappy

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 11:06:20 -0600

Just for those of you following along, the above OPS+ means that Ron Santo was a better offensive third baseman than the average HoF third baseman. That's pretty unequivocal.

ReverendSlappy

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:58:49 -0600

jimbo: That's true, because it's such an obvious case that it doesn't need to be repeated. But since you're apparently entirely unfamiliar with the facts, I'll sum it up thusly: Average OPS+ for the 10 non-Negro League third basemen currently in the Hall of Fame (again, excluding them because I don't have their stats): 123 Ron Santo's OPS+: 125 'Nuff said. Let me know if you need a tutorial on OPS+.

jimbo

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:25:32 -0600

It's nice to see that Santo's crying to the press again http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3756458 Slappy, you haven't had an argument other than that an argument has been made elsewhere

ReverendSlappy

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:27:55 -0600

jimbo: I blew your defensive argument out of the water by demonstrating that Santo is in the middle of the pack defensively among HoF third basemen -- and, in fact, better than several. Your argument that he's unqualified because of his defense is baseless. Strike 1. I already did post Santo's stats next to Brooks Robinson's at your (misguided and presumably utterly uninformed) suggestion. They demonstrate clearly and unequivocally that Santo was a far, far, far better offensive player. The two aren't even close. Strike 2. And if you'd read the above, you'd see I already compared Gaetti and Santo, and your assertion is absolutely laughable. A joke. Strike three. Again: Please feel free to rejoin the conversation when you have a legitimate point to make. In the meantime, you may want to try familiarizing yourself a little with, you know, baseball.

jimbo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:18:34 -0600

lol Slappy, to this point you've blown me out of the water by discrediting 10 errors. that's impressive. seriously, post their stats side by side. show everybody what a joke your argument is.

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:15:13 -0600

jimbo: Clearly you're either not serious or you don't know what you're talking about, but I'll bite anyway. Gaetti was an All Star only twice, for starters, was good for less than 25HR/season, batted .255, only batted over .300 in one season... I could go on. Short version: Gaetti OPS+ 97. Santo, 125. Please. So far, your defensive argument was blown out of the water, and your attempt at comparing Brooks Robinson only makes Santo's case stronger. But thanks for playing, and please feel free to rejoin this conversation when you have a legitimate point to make.

jimbo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:14:35 -0600

Could somebody please post Gary Gaetti's stats for us? I'm serious. Then I want you cub trolls to argue that Gaetti deserves to be in the HOF too.

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:41:03 -0600

...there is no broadcaster on the face of this earth worse than Harrelson. This.

PhotoshopAbuser

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:33:55 -0600

Wasn't Ron know as a rally killer? Just sayin... I think he is hilarious in the booth. The noises that guy comes up with are only outdone by my sons English Bulldog! BlueFairlane....I too, am a Sox fan but there is no broadcaster on the face of this earth worse than Harrelson. We turn the radio on during games just so we don't have to listen to those puddin heads.

Von Erich

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:46:34 -0600

"I'm glad he got rejected, again. He is just a cry baby and a truly horrible broadcaster, an embarrassment really to the Cubs and their fans." But he is not being inducted for broadcasting. He had good numbers, HOF worthy. I guess the reason Schmidt would be in is because he had over 500 homers, which almost guarantees you a spot. But yes, he sucks as a broadcaster. Pat Hughes and Pat Foley are the best in Chicago. And I really wish Foley would take up all four major sports in Chicago. Sighing and groaning, and pitching your own organization all game, every game is really annoying. The saga is picking up steam every year though. It's getting to the point that if he makes it, it will be like the athlete that is out of his element that finally crosses the finish line to synch'd clapping and a "yay he made it" cheer. As far as Asshole factor, if cocaine use/charges, drunk driving, involuntary manslaughter, spousal abuse, more bastard children than fingers and toes, back child support, tax liens, animal cruelty, etc., won't keep people out of a Hall of Fame, being a jerk won't, unless you slash the tires of the remaining HOFers alive.

BlueFairlane

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:01:20 -0600

As far as his broadcasting ... A big reason I'm a White Sox fan is so I don't have to listen to Ron Santo. Santo make Hawk Harrelson sound like a genius channeling Bob Costas. Santo is a baseball version of a poor man's Maddon. In fact, I'd like to see Santo and Madden do a game together. It wouldn't matter which sport, as it's not like either of them would notice.

Slaphappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:06:10 -0600

There are fewer third basemen in the Hall of Fame than any other position (unless you want to consider "relief pitching" separate from starting pitching). A nine-time All Star like Santo deserves to be in.

smussy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:33:49 -0600

well, if they keep not inducting ron, i most certainly hope all of the asterisk guys haven't got a chance of getting in. as far as his broadcasting ... that's why he's got pat. his color commentary is weird, bizarre and funny. and sometimes downright awful. but he's a true blue fan, and i think you can hardly do worse than that.

Stealth

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:09:02 -0600

But since when has being an asshole been something to keep anyone out of the hall of fame? You could probably say the same for a whole lot of those guys. Three words: Ty Freakin' Cobb.

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:43:38 -0600

And jimbo: How is comparing Santo to Brooks Robinson "a joke"? Santo hit for more power (342 HR in 15 seasons compared to Robinson's 268 in 23), drove in more runs per season, scored more runs per season, walked more per season and had a higher career BA -- 10 points. While Robinson was the better defensive player, he wasn't nearly as good offensively as Santo. So yes, you're right in that way: Comparing them is a joke, primarily because Robinson was so, so, so egregiously much worse offensively, while Santo was only moderately worse on defense.

oz115

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:34:15 -0600

Good work on the fielding stats, ReverendSlappy. I wanted to add that I can't think of many players who get elected to the Hall of Fame because they're good fielders. Ozzie Smith, maybe? Do you think anyone is going to not vote for Manny Ramirez when the time comes because he plays horrible defense? (There's other reasons somebody might not vote for him, but it won't be that.) Santo probably deserves to be in the HOF. The 60's weren't a big offensive decade, so that makes his stats more impressive. His active campaigning for it is unseemly, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what kept him out. I don't recall if Phil Rizzuto did any campaigning for the HOF, but the Veterans Committee picked him despite some pedestrian statistics, and I get the feeling most people loved Rizzuto.

JoeM500

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:32:18 -0600

He'll be voted in posthumously.

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:31:37 -0600

Also, it's worth noting that 10 of those 327 E's came at a position other than 3B.

Albanyparkour

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:21:01 -0600

@Chuck: WGN is not helping by having EVERY HOST have a segment about this EVERY TIME he gets rejected. Steve Dahl (god rest his show) did a bit about this a while back. "If they'd shut about how wrong the HoF is, maybe they'd vote him in." The man is, sincerely, one of the worst voices in radio. Like a cat in a garbage disposal.

jimbo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:19:46 -0600

Ty Cobb and Pete Rose are regarded as two of the best players of all time. Comparing Brooks Robinson to Santo is a joke btw. As far as I could tell, there are 13 third basemen in the hall of fame. Outside of being a fan favorite for what he's done as a broadcaster, does he really deserve to be alongside those in the HOF? Also, you can't put 4 guys into the HOF from a team that didn't win anything.

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:16:54 -0600

Chuck: Well put about both the "asshole factor" and the campaigning. And jimbo: Santo's defensive stats are right in the middle of the pack of the 10 third basemen (minus the 3 Negro League players who I've omitted simply because I don't have ready access to their stats) in both errors and fielding percentage. Perhaps it's not possible to argue that Santo was a defensive powerhouse, but his numbers are in line with those already in the Hall. George Kell 0.971 168 Brooks Robinson 0.971 264 George Brett 0.971 292 Freddie Lindstrom 0.965 136 Wade Boggs 0.965 232 Mike Schmidt 0.961 328 Eddie Mathews 0.959 313 Ron Santo 0.954 327 Pie Traynor 0.946 348 Frank Baker 0.943 322 Jimmy Collins 0.928 478

Chuck Sudo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:12:26 -0600

jimbo: If being an asshole keeps baseball players out of the Hall of Fame, then Ty Cobb certainly deserves to be kicked out, and Pete Rose would not get in if baseball ever reinstates him. And Santo won 5 straight Gold Gloves from '64-'68. Only Brooks Robinson compared of the third basemen in his era. What's hurt Santo in his HOF chances more than anything has been his open lobbying for the honor. He used to outright campaign for induction annually and, when he would be turned down time after time, we'd be treated to the spectacle of the Ron Santo pity party/suicide watch. Not surprisingly, since he was told to tone that down, his vote totals from the Veterans Committee went up. Although I suspect it may be too little, too late.

Marcus Gilmer

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:05:59 -0600

Ah, well, ok. I see your point now. As for the errors, probably not and that is an admittedly weak point. We'll be seeing a lot more hang wringing on players from the 90's soon as to whether or not they should be in the HOF...

krusty

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:05:03 -0600

I'm glad he got rejected, again. He is just a cry baby and a truly horrible broadcaster, an embarrassment really to the Cubs and their fans.

jimbo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:04:12 -0600

It's not garnering him any sympathy right now from the veterans committee. I could be completely off base, but I'd like to know if there are any third basemen in the hall of fame that have 327 career errors

Marcus Gilmer

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:56:38 -0600

But since when has being an asshole been something to keep anyone out of the hall of fame? You could probably say the same for a whole lot of those guys.

jimbo

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:52:20 -0600

You left out the fact that he was an asshole to everybody when he played. Or the fact that he had over 300 errors over the course of his career

ReverendSlappy

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:40:52 -0600

The unassailable case for Santo's induction has been made so thoroughly and repeatedly that I won't bother to repeat it here. Suffice it to say, the decision is a complete and total crock of shit.