Chicagoist: Plowing Concerns Spread In City Council

Ingrid

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:13:20 -0600

At least the Trib cares about us. In an article yesterday they urged people to bring a blanket, flashlight and some food in case they're stranded in their cars.

Stealth

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:06:36 -0600

FYI: More snow predicted for this afternoon/evening. And here I forgot to bring my sleeping bag for my stranded-at-work party.

Albanyparkour

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:54:04 -0600

$50 bucks an hour? Pshaw, that's not worth giving up my ghost payroll gig for.

dopplerd

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:21:44 -0600

Morning math error: Overtime rate is more like $50/hr not $100. Sorry for posting the wrong number.

Navin

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:00:31 -0600

Seriously, Great posts dopplerd, very revealing and I wish I could say surprising.

Albanyparkour

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:38:18 -0600

@dopplerd: You know, you have more insight in 2 posts than either the Trib of Sun-times have had in all their coverage of this mess? Follow the money, what a concept!

dopplerd

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:06:42 -0600

DSS straight time for plow drivers ends a 3pm. Don't expect anything to get plowed or salted until then. Of course by 4 rush hour is in full swing and grid lock ensues making it impossible for any plowing to occur. This vicious cycle perpetuates itself and the drivers love to sit in traffic making near $100/hour.

Albanyparkour

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:02:34 -0600

@Krusty: Again, Matilda gift wraps the answer and lays it neatly under your tree. But I'm a grinch who comes to steal it and I don't care how loud you Whovillians sing, you ain't getting shit back from me. People loved those flower boxes for years and not a well run public transit system. They also loved toxic securities and paying out large settlements on lawsuits for police abuse, rampant civic corruption and fraud. Well, love is a strong word. Broken: it's been that way under Daley for years and has only been exposed to a greater degree by the current budget crisis. (see above cited flower boxes) Again, with the flower boxes. Do you mean the drunk driver killers that Daley puts at side street intersections? Or the median beautification? You do know that those are funded with private monies in large part, right? @Matilda: Irish pols?? Do you mean Police and Fire...yeah, slash their budgets- they don't do anything! The millions spent settling police lawsuits would be a good place to cut. Or the 60 million being dumped on new greenwashed SUVs. My comment was simply that people's snow removal expectations are out of whack with the other larger problems that exist in this city. If streets are not passable by car/bus/cycle traffic every other problem gets that much worse. Grandma had a slip and fall? House on fire? Shots fired? How can help get to them. Not to mention the economic impact. By the way, this wasn't even a very bad snowstorm. It's still technically Autumn. This does not bode ...oh, and ALBANY, i have shoveled snow plenty of times...let me know if you need some help next time You do seem quite competent at shoveling unwanted matter. How does five bucks and hour and a reach around sound?

Stealth

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:02:24 -0600

I'm sorry but people's expectations for snow removal, especially in this city, are irrational. You know what other municipalities first rule of snow removal is? Answer: wait until it stops snowing before you plow/salt. And you know what those municipalities are? Peotone, Kishwaukee and other places where traffic is so light, even at rush hour, that they don't need the heavy equipment. And that "wait until it stops" argument is ridiculous. First, they don't know WHEN it will stop (apparently, since they also don't seem to know when it will start). So they could be waiting indefinately. meanwhile the snow accumulates so much that even the trucks have a hard time getting through Second, salt already on the group helps to stop snow from accumulating as it falls. Try it sometime: put salt on your sidewalk as it's snowing and you won't see snow accumulate and cover it up. Put the salt on the street as it's snowing (as the city used to do), and the most you get is slush from the cars mashing up the accumulated snow.

matilda

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:52:58 -0600

The city magically has $86 million for Reese and its Olympic dreams, but has to cut back snow removal. Interesting set of priorities for Daley and his buddies. In other words, he doesn't care about the little people until election time comes around.

mikely1

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:51:34 -0600

$10 says swrandy, first time poster, is a city employee.

mikely1

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:47:24 -0600

Adams and Franklin was a mess. In ten years I've never seen downtown so bad, especially after only, what, 4 inches? Bad. Clark in Andersonville was gridlocked from Gethsemane south to about Catalpa. I saw several cars brake and slide through Clark and Balmoral and was surprised I didn't witness an accident. And of course, Chicago drivers, in all their civic glory, who feel they've waited long enough just blow the light after a certain point, cross traffic and pedestrians be damned. I also saw countless idiot pedestrians j-run-walk across Clark in front of cars that could not have stopped for them if they'd slipped in the snow and fallen. I waited 30 minutes for a 22 and then gave up and walked. If this continues, people are going to definitely get killed this winter. In '99 we got two feet of snow in 24 hours and the main streets were clear within a day. Those days are over. Be careful out there kids. Remember, cars come first in Chicago and the only laws enforced are parking-related.

matilda

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:39:07 -0600

My comment was simply that people's snow removal expectations are out of whack with the other larger problems that exist in this city. I agree this city has many large problems, problems that are getting worse (too few cops, for instance, and bond ratings that could decline, making borrowing more expensive) but this is a major city in the northern Midwest, and snow removal is a basic service for which we pay decent amounts of taxes. And don't blame all the city's woes on current economic problems: City leaders--and I use that term loosely--should have done a better job planning for the day when the housing bubble burst. Daley always shows off how he reads the Financial Times, and talks as though he is some smart guy about where the economy is headed (that is the reason his gives for not wanting to divert Midway lease money to snow operations); didn't this sudden economic wizard ever consider that all bubbles burst, and that basic services are more important than flowers or rewarding his third cousin with some bullshit contract?

jimbo

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:00:26 -0600

When I was on my way back this afternoon, I was stuck on my street between a s/s truck with a guy that was in the back that was replacing the street lights and a plow behind me. Talk about a hell of a day for city services on my street.

ironyisoverrated

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:38:25 -0600

Anyone defending the city for their inaction yesterday either works for the city or has close family that does. Rush hour? My wife and I took off from Western and Foster at about 2 yesterday, after clearing a bunch of freshly fallen snow off of our car. Western? Clogged with snow and ice. Foster? Same. LSD? Ditto. On the way back, closer to 5 than we'd planned, we found Michigan was a sloppy mess that had CLEARLY not been touched by plows or salt all day. Once we finally made it to LSD, it was a toboggan run all the way to Lawrence. Oh, and Lawrence? Totally clear! Of city crews that is. The only thing getting plowed yesterday before 8pm were the asses of Chicago taxpayers. S&S crews were obviously dogging it during regular work hours to make overtime more justifiable to the public. Then, late in the evening, they sweep in at time and a half to "prove" how much they deserve their OT. Don't S&S vehicles have GPS receivers? I'd love to know where the fleet really was all day. How fast were they moving before rush hour? I bet buses running along the same streets were moving faster.

emme

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:04:17 -0600

The view from Albany Park/Lincoln Square? Snow started coming down around 1pm. When I left the house around 2:30pm, there was almost an inch of snow. About two hours and a couple inches of snow later the main drags -- Montrose, Lincoln, Kedzie, Western -- still hadn't been touched. The city's response to the snow so far this season has been the worst I've seen in my 20-plus years here.

swrandy

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:24:15 -0600

I swear, you people just like to bitch. From watching everything from the 14th floor. I could see what was going on downtown. I live on the streets that they actually take care of. Salt was down at the start of the day. It didn't really start snowing til about 3:00. The traffic was already crazy backed up. I did see plows going through, but at the rate the traffic was moving and the rate of the snow, it just wasn't keeping up. At about 10:00 the streets finally started to look okay, which is funny because the first wreck I saw was at 11:00.

krusty

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:16:54 -0600

@Albany & Matilda I don't disagree with the broke/broken(ness) of the city. Broke: well, it is only the worse financial climate in the last 70+ years, so, of course we're broke. People loved those flower boxes for years and not a well run public transit system. Broken: it's been that way under Daley for years and has only been exposed to a greater degree by the current budget crisis. (see above cited flower boxes) @Matilda: Irish pols?? Do you mean Police and Fire...yeah, slash their budgets- they don't do anything! My comment was simply that people's snow removal expectations are out of whack with the other larger problems that exist in this city. ...oh, and ALBANY, i have shoveled snow plenty of times...let me know if you need some help next time

BlueFairlane

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:39:18 -0600

I agree with the general sentiment on last week's storm and on the ice that followed a few days later, but I have to give the city some slack for yesterday. There are a few reasons for this. 1. I did, in fact, see salt trucks downtown and on Milwaukee around noon, as the lake effect showers tapered off. 2. The timing WAS bad. Yes, it had been snowing most of the day, but most of that snow was lake effect showers that hadn't been predicted, were lighter in nature, were confined to specific parts of the city (mostly south from what I saw on radar) and weren't sticking. The systemic snow didn't move in until around 2 or 3. The streets downtown were already clogged, at least where I was in Streeterville, preventing salt trucks from moving. The snow just kept piling up around stopped traffic. 3. My street and the streets of my neighborhood were completely clear today. Nobody was leaving this stuff sitting around. From what I've observed, there is at least one storm every year just like this one, that comes in during the early afternoon and gets everyone riled up. I was out riding my bike during last year's version of it. The conditions were almost exactly the same. As I said, I think we have a justifiable beef with last week. Yesterday, not so much.

Scooter Libbby

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:26:10 -0600

Streets & San has never understood some simple, basic facts. If you don't clear the side streets, the cars have no where to go! The back up on to the main streets & make them impassable to traffic, which makes them impassable to the plows. I live near the Schreiber/Ravenswood garage & salt storage building. I see the plows leave all day long, the plow & salt the same main streets over & over again. But they could get a few of the side streets around here done at zero extra cost, just by having the plows leave the garage a different route. The city also doesn't seem to understand that this city isn't really as flat as they think. There are numerous side streets on the far north, far northwest & far south sides that are actually inclined. The need to be plowed & salted as soon as the main streets.

tc3

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:12:11 -0600

You know what other municipalities first rule of snow removal is? Answer: wait until it stops snowing before you plow/salt. It's the best way to keep the costs down and be effective in removing the snow from the roadway. Seriously? This is the excuse I tried on my parents as a kid to get out of shoveling the driveway while snow was still falling..."Why do I have to do it now when I'm going to have to do it again later?" I think that argument succeeded one time, and afterward it was obvious that waiting for it all to fall meant by the time I finally started shoveling, it was icier and heavier and I did a pretty piss-poor job. If this indeed is the "first rule" of snow removal, I'd love to see what the following rules are.

Albanyparkour

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:59:46 -0600

@Matilda: Again? Agreement? These days, they bring even the most disparate souls to brotherhood. @Krusty: You're completely wrong from the outset. First, it's not irrational to expect the government you pay for to keep the roads clear. That's basic, that's what we pay for in taxes and fees and fines, millions upon millions of dollars. Second, you've obviously never shoveled a walk in your life. If you know it's going to snow, throwing out some salt keeps accumulation low. Again, I know this from clearing driveways. Having plow trucks runnning from the start of a storm keeps snow from piling up in the first place. Heavy snow is harder to move and slowered to clear and over a certain depth salt is useless. Doppelard's anecdote of the smokers in the meeting says it all. At some point people will look back and see Richie and company at work on our backsides, but right now enough people greased by the machine, so nothing changes.

matilda

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:13:04 -0600

I'm sorry but people's expectations for snow removal, especially in this city, are irrational. Bullshit. Albany has it right: The city is broke and broken, and thanks to constant mismanagement and Daley trying to sock away money for the Olympics, things are bound to get worse. This is fucking Chicago, and the snow-plowing efforts this year is a joke. Tell me again why taxes keep going up, and likely will keep going up? Oh yeah--to pay for the jobs programs for all the fake Irish pols and their allies, and to pay for all the lawsuits this city pays out, and for all the wastes of money. I don't think Chicago has to go balls-out for every small snow storm, but so far this winter, the efforts have been sub-standard, to say the least. Remember, Chicago is supposed to be a livable city, a city that works, and if we can't do better during these long months of winter (not that it's even officially winter yet), then something is seriously wrong.

krusty

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:44:05 -0600

kscully

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:56:34 -0600

When I got home from work around 6pm, Lawrence at Western was totally unplowed.

Tower18

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:49:41 -0600

Hell, I live in the Gold Coast, and I'd say it was between 7:00 and 9:00 last night before LaSalle got plowed. And that's south of North ave.

dopplerd

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:47:43 -0600

I worked (briefly) with Streets and San as a consultant several years ago. It is a clown shop (as if you didn't already know that). As consultants we observed the operations and made recommendations on how to improve the efficiency of the operations. On every single proposal we made we were told why it would not work and that they already know what they are doing. One small scale test that did get implemented with simple guide lines was so badly bungled, most likely deliberately, by the streets and san people we just turned in our recommendations and knew that nothing would ever come of it. Just as an indicator of the level of BS that existed in this group: Several people, all city employees, were smoking during a meeting. This meeting was in City Hall, seventh floor, in 2005.

dopplerd

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:45:01 -0600

SouthChicagopolitics

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:22:55 -0600

Thank god someone is rising up to this situation. I live in McKinley Park/Bridgeport area and our side streets not only are covered with snow but also contain a nice sheet of ice from the first storms that hit a week ago!

Ingrid

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:17:57 -0600

--I was in Minneapolis for a really bad winter storm, an all day blower. They had the side streets clear in 36 hours. This is what I've been saying forever...why can't Chicago (and other cities for that matter who act like every winter is the first time they've seen snow...why can't they walk their legs on over to areas such as Minnesota, or upstate New York, where they have snow removal down to a science and learn from them how to do it? Would it kill them to just ask someone with experience?

Ingrid

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:16:55 -0600

Albanyparkour

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:59:54 -0600

Look, I don't expect the side streets day of a storm, but the big streets, those should be worked from the first flake. It makes the whole process more effective, gets cars off the road (how many accidents made travel times even WORSE? Or got people hurt?) faster and over the next day or so you get the side streets. I was in Minneapolis for a really bad winter storm, an all day blower. They had the side streets clear in 36 hours. Remember Bilandic you sons of bitches.

Navin

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:53:40 -0600

If North Ave. over here got plowed it didn't happen probably until well after 7pm which I think was around when I got home. The whole street was covered in snow. Too much snow for cars to melt or displace.

Albanyparkour

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:43:09 -0600

@Navin: My friend works at a cafe on Foster. Since business was dead from the storm, they watched to see if a plow came. From 10am-4:40...not one plow. Her manager said she was "scared" to go home, which was on the near west side.

Navin

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:41:14 -0600

I wonder who "Matt Smith" is related to?

Navin

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:39:22 -0600

Rush hour my ass! Who ya crappin' asshole? It was coming down all afternoon. I did not see one plow during my *epic* long commute home last night (through Ocasio's ward). Froze my ass off and agravated my already sore and acting up back from standing outside forever.

Zack

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:58 -0600

While it does suck, I did notice a plow went down my side street already today, it took them more than a week to do this after the last snow.

via chicago

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:24:09 -0600

It started snowing mid morning...evening rush hour my ass

Albanyparkour

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:20:48 -0600

Well, let's call bullshit on the "timing" issue. It was snowing all fucking day, by 5pm when I left work Clark street near andersonville was simply not plowed. CLARK. Not some piddling little street. CLARK. Western was a mess, Foster (all the way to the bus barn at Kedzie) all shitty. Snow was falling all day long. They didn't have trucks keeping up to, at very least, make the rush hour lighter. If you start when the snow begins to fly you don't have to scoop it all up at the end. Simple driveway logic here. I got up to Evanston and the side streets were in better shape than many of the main drags in chicago. Look, the city is broken at this point. Broke and broken, to put a fine point on it. Why are we paying taxes and fees and fines in the first place? Basic services are not being carried out.

Stealth

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:19:43 -0600

Streets and Sanitation spokesman Matt Smith said the rate of snow plus its timing - happening at rush hour when many vehicles were on the road - complicated the matter for the department. Yeah, it's called a "weather report". Lots of other cities use them. See, they watch these "weather reports" and see when the big snow is slated to get here. Then they get their trucks ready to roll. And here's the thing, you don't have to wait until the snow is actually accumulate on the ground, you can spread the salt while it's snowing (!) And seeing as how it was coming down pretty good BEFORE rush hour hit and the streets were congested, it seems like something could have been done on the main areas like Lake Shore Drive before rush hour.