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After Friday's pro-Palestine protest, demonstrators moved farther north along Michigan Avenue to a tourist-heavy spot near Water Tower. This time, some pro-Israel demonstrators were thrown into the mix. Titled the "Emergency Protest for Gaza", people once again called for Israel to cease their current military actions against Hamas.
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A Very Merry Unauthorized Children's Scientology Pageant at the Red Orchid Theatre--it made Crains
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This is exhibit 1A that our education system needs a reformation
Look at that, really folks, LOOK AT THAT. Arabs and Jews shouting at each other. Oh yes, waving signs, making noise, arguing and spouting slogans.
How many dead? How many rounded up and 'disappeared'? How many 'detained'?
It's polly-anna, sure, but that's what makes this country such an amazing place. You're free to fight and argue, be right and be wrong. That's a fine thing, in the face of all this damn blood.
I saw a documentary a while back about Israeli and Palestinian mothers coming together, making peace with each other, listening to the other's stories and trying to bring about some change.
It was very moving.
Because what this all boils down to is mothers losing their sons and daughters to an endless, stupid war.
And as a mother, I cannot even imagine the outrage and sadness I'd feel if I lost my only son in this stupidity.
only fools take sides in this conflict and the wise stand with those caught in the crossfire.
my dad can beat up your dad!
You stay klassy Israel!
GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank shells killed at least 40 Palestinians on Tuesday at a U.N. school where civilians had taken shelter, medical officials said, in carnage likely to boost international calls for a halt to Israel's Gaza offensive.
An Israeli military spokeswoman said she was looking into information on the incident at al-Fakhora school in Jabalya refugee camp.
People cut down by shrapnel lay in pools of blood on the street. Witnesses said two Israeli tanks shells exploded outside the school, killing at least 40 civilians -- Palestinians who had taken refuge there and residents of nearby buildings.
In a separate attack earlier in the day, three Palestinians were killed in an airstrike on another school run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.
The deaths raised to 75 the number of Palestinian civilians killed on Tuesday alone, according to medical officials.
Yet these some of the Palestinians eagerly send their kids on suicide-bomb attacks. Life is cheap on both sides, I guess.
*citation needed*
You stay klassy yourself.
Some real faulty logic there. By your *reasoning* Chicago police should be able to blow up entire city blocks to get rid of one hood who fired shots at them. Not too mention that one's a *State* action while the other is not.
No, the only logic is that Israel isn't the only one killing people.
lol,
I'd wager more people are dying in Chicago ghettos than in Israel's streets. At least one thing is perfectly clear: This isn't about targeting militants but about collective punishment and the elimination of a people. Should be interesting how many die not by war but the lack of food, medical care etc., especially considering they were nearly starving already due to the blockade.
It's "Our Freedom" that makes them hate us though.....
And I just want to laugh about the guy's "India" sign in the photo. Do you think the world would give India the same kind of long leash if it rained bombs on Pakistan?
Didn't think so.
This isn't about targeting militants but about collective punishment and the elimination of a people
That makes no sense. If Israel wanted to eliminate the Palestinians, Israel could have easily done so a while ago. Collective punishment? Yes. No argument there. But, again, that is the nature of war, and war remains part of human society for the foreseeable future, so deal with it.
No they couldn't do it outright. My guess is Israel is unsure about to what degree Obama will give them unconditional support, and is seeing their chance here as the U.S. is in transition and worried about other things. It's all about getting more and more land and yes eliminating Palestinians. As I mentioned before to you, the World wouldn't sit for outright destruction, but they'll sit for this and Israel will back out soon ridiculously claiming that they achieved something.
"so deal with it"
Oh, brilliant.
Also I'd like to ass since it's conspicuously missing from MSM commentary: Hamas made it clear to Israel that it would stop the rockets if Israel would just lift the blockade and allow food, care and such into Gaza. This was several days before this attack. Of course we see Israel's answer.
You seem all too willing to give the benefit of the doubt, in not wholesale credibility, to what Hamas says in true, automatically discounting the Israeli view. You seem biased toward the underdog no matter what. Am I wrong? I am going by your words here.
Yeah you're both wrong. Israel's response is wrong period as was the blockade in the first place. Face it you guys are utter hypocrites. I think it's *funny* that the justification's you guys give for Israel's killing of civilians is the *exact* same one Al Qaeda gave for 9/11 and other acts that cause massive civilian death. Hey you mess with the bull.......
Yes I like to "ass".
Hamas has been trustworthy in the past, and it's not like they want anything but peace for their people, so you're right Navin.
If you mess with the bull, you get the horns. This isn't a difficult concept.
They do want peace for their people as would you too if your home was under a brutal occupation and you were being starved of food and medical care. Israel would not lift the blockade *during* the cease fire, not even for UN aid. Hamas responded as desperate people (and yourselves) would with no other options.
200 something people were murdered in that insane terrorist operation in India yet India's leash was pulled and they were told by Western powers to restrain themselves. Not so for Israel hmmmm................
Oh well, we'll all pay for letting Israel do this.
So, it's alright then to call for the extermination of the Jews, and act like you mean it over a period of years, and not expect a response?
You are avoiding even thinking about the moral responsibility of Hamas in this matter. And I find it odd you defend a group that supports medieval cultural values that go against nearly everything the West cherishes--you know, free speech, women's rights and all that. What's the problem there with you?
You'd want to drive whoever was treating you like that "into the ocean" yourself. Quit bullshitting yourself. Apparently you'd be happy as a clam being occupied and utterly dominated, starved, murdered and abused by some other country. Durrrr.....I can't understand why you hate us????
That's really what you get out of these arguments? Odd.
Perhaps I wouldn't support an organization and government that lobbed rockets into another country's space, or which wanted to exterminate--yes, exterminate--most citizens of that other country, or which supported nihilistic values at odd with nearly every good value since the Enlightenment.
I love how your statement requires a complete absence of history in the region to make sense. I've answered your questions and you yourself have conspicuously ignored about 3/4 of what I've said...
The actions Palestinians have been reduced to are no different than others in the same situations throughout history include our own population of native people's that we similarly abused.
Oh, the poor fucking members of Hamas (notice the term I use). No one understands their God-ordained struggle to rid the Mid-East of those evil Israelis and impose Islamic rule in at least a part of the region. My violin is playing for those heroic martyrs, who are EXACTLY like the American Indians (whose land YOU still occupy by the way--will you be giving it back? No? Then you, too, live by double-standards).
Listen, it sucks that innocent Palestinians are dying. I really don't care as much as you do, obviously. The Allies had to kill a lot of Germans and Japanese to win that war (and no, this is not some WWII rerun, I understand that, just making an example). War sucks. Perhaps Hamas should not have started this one. Perhaps Hamas should stop firing rockets and quit demanding the destruction of Israel.
So, Navin, do you agree with the ideals and aims of Hamas or not? Can you answer the question?
I've answered all your questions Matilda. Perhaps you need to re-read.
FWIW, I do support giving the land back to Indians and I have enough Ojibwa blood to probably be accepted so it's all good. Of course we didn't take their land just 50 years ago either.....
You're just becomming utterly incoherent now: WWII compared to Gaza lol. Vietnam would be more appropriate and we didn't even want their land. I'm sure you're surprised that they rejected colonial powers too. Why are they fighting back? It's puzzling? Durrr. Jesus, learn *something* from history PLEASE. Israel will either have to nearly wipe out all Palestinian people from *there home* or will have to learn to share or at best be a good neighbor.
Israel has created the situation it's in by its own actions. Whether I agree with Hamas response is neither here nor there. As I said if I or you were Joe Blow in Gaza I'd suspect we'd be extremely angry, desperate and have different views on the morality of simply *fighting back*. I've noticed you've had *nothing* to say about that either.
P.S. calling one side raining indiscriminate, overwhelming death from the sky "War" is a bit charitable.
I noticed you said "Jews" too. Can we keep this to the *State* of Israel. Kthx.
Why, exactly? For many Islamic militants, it's about the Jews. Not saying you are wrong, only that I'd curious about your reason for this request.
Tell you what, if you quit avoiding my questions about Hamas, I will refrain from "Jews."
As an apologist you see this simply as an underdog situation rather than the fact that one side is clearly at fault. As I've pointed out, were the situations reversed and you were suffering the same kinds of abuse, you would not stand for it. To say otherwise is to be simply dishonest. But by all means remain ignorant of the subject and keep condoning mass murder, like I said we'll all have to pay for the stupidity. Our direct funding and approval for this ought to create a few thousand more terrorists determined to get some payback.
One side is not "clearly" at fault. Both sides share blame--I said as much yesterday, even though I do support Israel in this war- but why are so willing to look the other way when it comes to Islamic nihilists who have the stated goal of wiping Israel from the map?
lol,
You're *now* trying to make the argument about the flaws of Hamas and whoever else rather than admit the actions of Israel here are disgusting and unjustified.
Navin: That's because I don't believe Israel is unjustified in this war. Did you miss that? I think all war is disgusting--that's war; and that why leaders and peoples should work hard to avoid it--and I think Israel has made many, many bad moves, but I think Israel has a right to kill people who fire rockets into its territories, and take moves that might prevent other rockets from being fired.
You have yet to address whether you agree with the values and aims of Hamas, and whether that group shares any responsibility for the current war. What are you afraid of? I suspect--please prove me wrong--that your position amounts to knee-jerk support for the underdog, a feeling I often see from the left.
Israel's response is wrong period as was the blockade in the first place. Face it you guys are utter hypocrites. I think it's *funny* that the justification's you guys give for Israel's killing of civilians is the *exact* same one Al Qaeda gave for 9/11 and other acts that cause massive civilian death. Hey you mess with the bull.......
Wrong, as in factually? Yeah, right?
Why can't you bring yourself to acknowledge the fanatical, nihilistic nature of Hamas--for Christsake's, they want to drive the Jews out?--in your rush to favor the underdog?
Navin, the Israelis left Gaza a few years ago, voluntarily. That is hardly the action of a country bent on exterminating the population. Quit being silly and propagandistic.
Navin,
What is so wrong with Israel wanting to crush Hamas? Their objective is not to kill the Palestinians (as their goal is to kill ALL Israelis), but to get rid of Hamas in order
to allow Abbas and his government to return so that there can be peaceful negotiations.
You cannot negotiate with Hamas. Both Abbas and Olmert know that many, many compromises must be made and this will never happen with Hamas in power.
Clinton tried to work on this and for EIGHT FRIKKiNG YEARS Bush pretty much ignored the situation so that his little pea brain could focus on getting revenge on Saddam all the while destroying any credibility the United States had with the Arab nations.
Now it's all going to be on Obama's plate. What a mess it is. And it will NEVER get any better while Hamas is in power.
Navin, why are you incapable of seeing that regardless of the moral-righteousness that you perceive the Palestinians to have in this situation, they aren't in a position of bargaining power?
If you're not in a position of bargaining power, you have to make concessions to get what you can. Hamas refuses to do so. They, and the electorate that put them in power, deserve everything they're getting right now.
No, the people of Gaza do NOT deserve everything they're getting now. Hamas is another story.
lol, who put Hamas into power?
The people that elected a party that had a history of starting violence don't deserve what they have coming right now?
The people that elected a party that had a history of starting violence don't deserve what they have coming right now?
Exact same reasoning that Al Qaeda states for killing U.S civilians. Congrats Jimbo, you've found mental equals. After all we *all* elected Bush and are responsible for Iraq etc... Would you like to embarrass yourself further?
Navin, why are you incapable of seeing that regardless of the moral-righteousness that you perceive the Palestinians to have in this situation, they aren't in a position of bargaining power?
So only those with power have the moral high ground. Thanks yet again for such fascinating insight Jimbo! If only all those who've suffered injustice over the years had listened to your sagely advice. Hell, we'd still have the Jim Crow South, that'd be pretty cool. Thanks again....
At this moment in time, Hamas is the biggest obstacle to peace. They encourage violence and they deny the right of Israel to exist.
The Israelis have every right to be paranoid because Hamas is hell bent on Israel's destruction.
Compromises must be made and this is known by the moderates. Don't know what you don't get about that, Navin....but if Hamas is in power there will never be anything even resembling peace in that region.
We're talking about right now. Yes, there is no doubt that Israel has carried out many injustices to the Palestinian people in the past. But for right now, the issue is Hamas.
They are the obstacle to peace at this moment.
They need to be dealt with. Children and innocents are dying because they have no morality. They're hiding among their own people...you can't blame Israel for this.
Get rid of Hamas and so that negotiations can begin with more level headed people.
Jesus Christ Ingrid do you get your news from People Magazine? Your post is just a bunch disingenuous, parroted cliches.
And, unfortunately, most of your arguments seem to come straight from the "Che for Dummies" handbook. All you have is the underdog-is-always-right argument going for you now. Did you miss the part where Israel, a few years ago, actually pulled out of Gaza in order to advance progress toward lasting peace? Based on your ideas put forth here, I wonder if you know the meaning of such words as "disingenuous" or "cliche." Christ, I can all but hear the Internationale playing when I read your thoughts about this war. Grow up. Hamas, and its supporters and enablers, share a good deal of blame for this war (as does Israel, even if it has the right to defend itself).
And, more generally, I, for one, would be reluctant to offer so much support to a group such as Hamas that does not believe in free speech, women's rights or even broad secular-based thinking, and which has as its official policy (which is why it is backed by Iran) the actual elimination of a certain country. I guess I simply have different standards than the typical leftist these days.
Typical, resorting to childish "red baiting" and trying to paint me as some kind of hippie cartoon leftist. I guess you've got nothin' else in the way of a coherent argument. I'm not surprised though, it's a typical way to try to distract from the facts. Weak and predictable. You keep trying to make this about support for Hamas rather than rejecting what's essentially a mass murder of men, women and child civilians because because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.
Anyway, it's been entertaining watching you jump through logical hoops to try to defend a slaughter. Enjoy the mass murder of women and children.
Norwegian doctor comments on the massive deaths of women and children:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucASnDua9BE
An all out war against the civilian population:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA
You mean a doctor is horrified at the hell that is war? What's next? The sun rises in the east?
I think we can all agree that war sucks, even so-called necessary wars. That doesn't mean Israel can't defend itself from those who seek to eliminate the country, or those who have screwed up the peace process in Gaza. The world is an ugly place.
And one can argue that it's the civilians who have enabled Hamas (which, as if you don't know, hides among civilians, making them legitimate targets). We had no problem killing Germans and Japanese, did we?
Comparisons again to "The Big One"...... classic. I don't recall Japan being an tiny stretch of occupied land, blockaded, choked off and full of stateless defacto starving prisoners.
Not surprising that you ignore what the doctor actually says regarding the figures and places deliberately bombed. To support Israel's actions sort of requires being willfully ill-informed.
Written by a celebrity but so what? It's succinct and right on the money:
An Experiment in Provocation
Stealing Gaza
By Brian Eno
It's a tragedy that the Israelis - a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression - are now acting as oppressors. As the great Jewish writer Primo Levi once remarked "Everybody has their Jews, and for the Israelis it's the Palestinians". By creating a middle Eastern version of the Warsaw ghetto they are recapitulating their own history as though they've forgotten it. And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians - with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers - and themselves - with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world - they sacrifice all credibility.
The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people who fully deserve the right to live in peace, but who seem intent on squandering every chance to allow that to happen. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that this conflict serves the political and economic purposes of Israel so well that they have every interest in maintaining it. While there is fighting they can continue to build illegal settlements. While there is fighting they continue to receive huge quantities of military aid from the United States. And while there is fighting they can avoid looking candidly at themselves and the ruthlessness into which they are descending.
Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly...and, surprise, surprise - they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?
Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now 'under attack' you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn't possibly reach an accommodation.
And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland.