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Chicago Gets Googled
9th District Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky held a town hall meeting on health care reform this week, where she was met by both supporters and opponents of the legislation. Among the opponents of reform were several in the crowd that booed the late Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy.
For supporters of reform in Chicago, progressive public policy advocacy group MoveOn.org is holding a vigil in support of health care reform this evening in Grant Park. The "We Can't Afford to Wait Vigil" kicks off at 7 p.m. at the corner of Columbus Drive and East Balbo.
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Jesus...what a bunch of scumbags.
After listening to several videos of the right wing crazies these past couple of days (among some of the worst would be Michelle Bachman and that detestable Glen Beck), I can only hope that this is
all going to backfire on them.
How much longer can they go on fearmongering and spreading lies?
The proof of the republican party's divisiveness lies in the fact that not even the 'sane' ones, and by that I would mean McCain, will come out and just say "enough is enough".
If there is ever a time where righteousness needs to prevail, it's now.
I just wish that the Dems would fight back a little bit. I'm not saying they need to fearmonger but they need to do a better job of getting the word out there. First and foremost, make it perfectly obviously to even the biggest idiot republican that we already have healthcare death squads at all of our major insurance companies
Actually there's some footage of McCain on the youtubes daring to say that Obama does *in fact* understand the consitution to a crazy audience member at an AZ. townhall. The birther/tea party mob of course errupts in howls and jeers.
I saw that...but it was pretty lame. He needs to come out with strong statements against Limbaugh, Palin, Coulter, Cheney, etc.
It's so obvious that these republican mouth pieces are dangerous and crazy, but the republicans are so partisan that they put their own self interests before the truth and what is right.
I'm not saying that have to agree with everything Obama says, but could they just come out and be honest about the lies that the right wing is spreading? I don't know what's worse...the fact that they might really believe this shit, or the fact that they don't believe it, but won't come out against it.
What lies are you referring to? I see exaggerations but not sure what qualifies as "lies."
Death panels? Now that is inflammatory and exaggerated, but it refers to one version of the bill that included a government panel that makes decisions on treatment.
Coverage for illegal immigrants? Its not specifically in the bill, but there are portions that someone could imply illegals would be covered. Again, an exaggeration/spin but I don't know if it is a lie.
Both parties do this. Republicans do not have a monopoly on this. Unfortunately, its politics these days.
Have you actually listened to Michelle Bachman, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Glen Beck or anyone on Fox News?
Bachman's the congresscritter who's suggested Minnesotan right wingers arm themselves (for revolution), and talked about slitting wrists and all kinds of other nuttiness, right?
That's the nutter!
How about these people even implying that any of Obamas weak, neo-liberal* center right policies are: Socialism?
*conservatives, look it up. Sorry to be so condescending.
What lies are you referring to? I see exaggerations but not sure what qualifies as "lies."
Come on Ronnie, play fair here. That's splitting hairs.
Death panels? Now that is inflammatory and exaggerated, but it refers to one version of the bill that included a government panel that makes decisions on treatment.
That never existed. NEVER. That has NEVER been part of ANY plan put forth by this congress. NEVER. The "death panels" comes from a Sarah Palin facebook nonsense, which in turn comes from Betsy McCaughey, a shill for the insurance lobby who helped scuttle health care back in the 90's. She's, simply put, a liar.
Coverage for illegal immigrants? Its not specifically in the bill, but there are portions that someone could imply illegals would be covered.
By law, ERs cannot turn people away regardless of whether they can pay or not. This nonsense about "illegals" taking up our health care is just that. They are "covered" in that they can recieve treatment. Mind you, with national health care it would actually be EASIER to identify those who are not part of the system.
Add to that the simple fact that treating "illegals" allows them to return to work. And since, because of the devaluation of labor since the Reagan era, they make up a huge chunk of the economy, you should be glad they're there.
Both parties do this. Republicans do not have a monopoly on this. Unfortunately, its politics these days.
Lie? Sure, the Democrats are not angels, but the utter falsehoods coming from the GOP these days are just astounding. It's a party gone astray. When Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin are your leading voices of reason and argument, the ship, she is sinking.
Wow, you have really convinced me to come over to your side. All of these accusations of lies and selection of demons (Beck, Limbaugh, Reagan, insurance companies, etc) are very appealing to someone who is independent. I realize that its in the political playbook to select and isolate demons.
I was saying that the Death Panel comment came from a part of the bill where "end-of-life care" is discussed with a patient. She used a gross exaggeration of that section of the bill and she also extrapolated that cost-cutting would mean rationed care as is happening in Britain. Like I said in my original post, it was exaggerated and spun about 1000 times. However, one side's lie is another side's thoughtful criticism. I think it is all political bullshit that has become commonplace today.
Is Obama lying when he says that if you like your plan/doctor you can keep it? That's not true if a person's company drops coverage. What a liar he is. Liar! He also lies when he says the stimulus is working and they have "saved" jobs. Liar! How about when he says that he never said the stimulus would work in the short term? Liar! Keith Olbermann had a guest on last night who said Beck, Bachman, and other want to see Obama "killed." Is that productive? Do all Democrats think that way? What a bunch of liars! And they are also shills for the unions and trial lawyers!
See, isn't this persuasive?
I realize that its in the political playbook to select and isolate demons.
Honestly, if there was a moderate GOP leadership asserting itself over the fringe I'd happily cite them. Michael Steele is telling old people that the democrats want to cut off medicare, that's madness.
She used a gross exaggeration of that section of the bill and she also extrapolated that cost-cutting would mean rationed care as is happening in Britain.
By 'gross exaggeration' you mean lies. She's telling people lies to scare them and make a political point.
Is Obama lying when he says that if you like your plan/doctor you can keep it? That's not true if a person's company drops coverage.
Um, that's not a lie because it's A: not what is being offered, and B: that's the state of things NOW. If my job goes from Aetna to BCBS I might be out of network for my doctor, and lose coverage. The proffered plans would allow you to keep coverage regardless.
What a liar he is. Liar! He also lies when he says the stimulus is working and they have "saved" jobs. Liar!
You mean like the thousands of construction projects that have been running since the spring? Or the thousands of GM workers who are back to work to fill orders from the cash for clunkers program?
Keith Olbermann had a guest on last night who said Beck, Bachman, and other want to see Obama "killed." Is that productive?
No, but I think it's pretty accurate. When leaders of the GOP (and sadly, those folks are just that) are calling the president a Nazi and comparing his health care reform to the third reich what do you think that's doing to the radical right? The folks who, before 9/11, were our most pressing terrorist threat?
See, isn't this persuasive?
But you've made no arguments and offered no explinations Ronnie? All you've done is act offended and whine about "politicians and the media". Offer some kind of response to the 40+ Million uninsured? Offer some kind of plan, suggest a leading conservative thinker who isn't screaming about death panels and other nonsense?
Balls in your court.
Jess...good post. I see what you are saying.
BUT IF my employer drops Health Care altogether, then I have to take the Public Option...or pay a significant increase to keep a Private Option.
Right?
Also...if there are different levels of Private Insurance (you mentioned a "Gold Standard")...what level would the Public Option be?
Thanks, Jess.
Have you seen the latest nonsense from Michael Steele?
Yes olds, Obama hates you and is coming for your pills. Good thing the AARP called this tactic bullshit pretty much instantly.
This is what the GOP has been reduced to, scaring the elderly with threats of "reforms" that aren't even being discussed. It's a party of kooks and thugs at this point, yelling just to drown out the clattering of their numerous failures over the past decade.
It's only a matter of time before the Republican party starts airing an ad similar to this one:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/2340/saturday-night-live-old-glory
It all makes sense now.
The Republican party has become a bunch of Glenn Beck's, Anne Coulter's and Rush Limbaugh's.
Obama's health care reform is not failing because of "right wing crazies" are "telling lies." It's failing because a substantial number of middle of the road Democrats in Congress have serious misgivings about creating another expensive federal entitlement when there may be a more sensible, less costly way to achieve the same goal of better health care.
I think the Administration knows this, and is giving cover to opponents in his own party. If the health care reform effort goes down in flames (and it sure looks like it will), the lie that "right wing opposition" and "insurance industry lobbyists" torpedoed it will go on forever.
there may be a more sensible, less costly way to achieve the same goal of better health care.
Would you care to share?
The plans set forth, like this one, are not ridiculously expensive. And, as has been pointed out all too often, the cost of doing nothing is far greater.
Note that the right, and these moderate democrats you cite, have proffered NOTHING in terms of a workable plan. There is no republican plan. Nothing. Nada. Status Quo is Copacetic.
The right wing noise machine has been in full fine and feathered form this summer, largely because they see this as a chance to derail Obama's presidency. These are the same people who bashed Cash for Clunkers for being too successful, and made light of Obama taking a week of vacation when his predecessor spent over 970 days (nearly 3 years) of his term at his vacation homes.
These are noisy, irrational people. And when we have proper health care befitting a western nation they will enjoy it just the same as those of us who are fighting for it. Irony, oh irony.
Government run healthcare in this country should be excellent and affordable for all people who don't have a job that gives them excellent, affordable healthcare. If you are lucky enough to have a job that gives you great benefits at a low price, then so be it. For everyone else who would either go without or pay exorbitant amounts to Blue Cross or whoever for individual healthcare...well that's where the government steps in.
mike...great post.
Here is a question maybe some posters can answer.
If there is a Government Option, I'm going to assume it is less costly than a Private Insurance Company because the Government Option is not 'for profit'. I would think the coverage would be the same, if not more than a Private Insurance company.
If there is a Government Option out there for any individual to join, then why wouldn't my employer just drop our Private Health Coverage?
It would take that expense off their books (they pay a portion)...and my employer will sleep soundly at night knowing his employees have Health Care through the Government.
I'm for Obama's plan...but I do wonder, if there is a Public Option for any individual, why would a business keep offering benefits at all?
if there is a Public Option for any individual, why would a business keep offering benefits at all?
See, this is the type of question that needs to be asked. My view, it will return employer benefits to what they were supposed to be all along, a means of enticing and keeping good employees. Say your job offers dental and optical, or hell even some cosmetic coverage, that's a great incentive. Like a company that offers to pay for your auto insurance or relocation expenses.
Honestly, if I was at a company with a gold standard health plan (really low deductibles, full dental and optical) I'd be inclined to stay. Knowing that if I lost that job but could still get healthcare without going bankrupt, would simply be humane, and not disadvantageous to my current employer. I.E., I'm not going to quit my job because my unemployment checks will be nice.
I guess I don't understand why you guys are guessing at the answers to this, when you could just read the legislation.
Prof. Robinson,
Your link doesn't work.
Maybe next time a little less smugness, and a little more attention to detail.
If you could post a link that works then that would be great.
It would be even greater if you did it without the attitude.
With regards.
Was that a response to Kevin or just some notes for yourself, ya pompous baboon?
That was directed towards Kevin.
While 'zinging' me in his response, his link did not work. Call it a "Zing Fail"?
Do you protect Kevin on the playgroud too, Jess? :-)
I'd love to check out that link.
Jess, you sound like a very nice and happy person. You really have all of the answers. Tell me, how does it feel to be so much smarter and morally superior to everyone else? It has to be quite stressful, I imagine. No wonder you lash out in every post. I'm sure its frustrating dealing with people of such inferior intellect.
I love how the author of this story identifies MoveOn as a "public policy advocacy group", implying it is independent. In truth, MoveOn is an ultra-liberal group funded by fatcats like George Soros. Nothing wrong with that, just call it what it is. But of course, liberals always think that they are reasonable and moderate, while everyone else who doesn't think like them are crazy, brainwashed, racist, etc.
I enjoyed reading these comments. I think I understand now. All of the people who don't think like all of you do so because they are brainwashed by the 5% of the media that is not in the tank for Obama. Also, they are crazy and stupid as well. There is no legitimate opposition to this bill and anyone who raises a question is a shill of the insurance companies, a hillbilly, a zombie, or not as smart as you liberals.
I am a right-leaning independent who opposes this bill but I will not waste my time explaining my opposition. You people argue like children calling each other names. Why such faith in government when they are so woefully inept in pretty much everything else they manage?
Also, remember all of those years we heard about how most Democrats protest peacefully? How about how 99% of Arabs are not terrorists? Both are true, but I guess that's not the case for opponents of health care. They are 100% stupid and racist. The Republican vs. Democrat arguments are very stale. Both parties have lost touch with the people and are out for themselves.
Ronnie,
People yelling at town halls, showing up with signs showing "Obama=hitler" and the GOP trying to scare old people with utter lies is the problem.
Look, you want to talk cost,or tort reform, or how regulation will (or won't) affect care? I'm with you. But the scare-mongering from the right has gone so far over the line reasonable people with questions and concerns are being drowned out.
I'd encourage you not to see "95% of the media" as "in the tank" for Obama. Rachel Maddow is a classical liberal, and she's been pretty tireless at hammering away on torture, GLBT rights and health care. You might not agree with them, but assuming that 95% of any group is out to get you or intractable is not how you start a conversation. It's how you end one.
Again, I would say that the Obama=Hitler signs are a small minority. There were plenty of Bush=Hitler signs in protests over the last eight years. I didn't like Bush, but I don't think those signs were appropriate either.
Perhaps 95% was an exaggeration, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that the vast majority of the media is sympathetic to Obama and largely uncritical of him. If a conservative had made a rule banning lobbyists, only to then grant numerous waivers to that rule, we would hear about it. If a conservative had fired an Inspector General of AMericorps for investigating a friend, the media would have been all over it. There are many more examples and polls show that most people agree that the media basically backs Obama. HOwever, that must be because they are all stupid.
As far as I know, Maddow makes it known she is a liberal, much like Limbaugh makes it known he is conservative. That is fine, I am talking about the mainstream media. And how does saying the media is overwhelmingly liberal end a conversation any more than name calling?
Again, I would say that the Obama=Hitler signs are a small minority. There were plenty of Bush=Hitler signs in protests over the last eight years
Of course. The problem is, those people aren't being decried by the GOP, they're being egged on. Michelle Bachman calling for a damned suicide pact? The right wing in this country has a history, a recent one, of bloody violence during democratic terms in the White House. The GOP whipping up the fringe is simply unconscionable.
Perhaps 95% was an exaggeration, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that the vast majority of the media is sympathetic to Obama and largely uncritical of him.
And yet this is the same media that engaged in nothing short of cheerleading in the run-up to the Iraq war.
And this "mainstream media" you're talking about, who is this? CBS, ABC, NBC? They all run scandal mongering celebrity news and moral panic garbage about sex crimes and online porn. They're not "liberal" they're about the money. The NY Times perhaps? Read the Washington Post if that's not your flavor. Fox News gets huge ratings, and yet the "liberal media" is still your boogeyman? Come on now, you can't keep blaming the messenger. It sounds rather ridiculous coming from Bill O'Reilly or Limbaugh, who then brag about their huge audiences.
Which is it, are you the oppressed little guy or the silent majority?
Could you please waste a little bit of your time and explain your opposition to this bill? It's difficult to understand your stance against something when you don’t state your reasons for the opposition.
Also, I whole-heartedly disagree with your statement that government is "woefully inept" in everything they manage. It's impossible for you, or anyone, to go about your daily activity without encountering some sort of function managed by a governmental body that is working properly so that you don't have to think twice about it. I would say overall they do a pretty good job.
Sure, no problem. I oppose this bill because I was told to do so by Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, and my fellow militia members. I very much prefer the status quo and would like to see people who are not covered continue to lack coverage and die on the street. Further, I do not like Obama and do not want to see him pass a bill that could succeed. I am also a racist, so that might have something to do with it as well.
Just thought I'd volunteer those things first since I would be accused of all of those things anyway.
Awww, no good ideas=sulky.
You've had several posts to offer any suggestions, or plans or even counter arguments. But you seem to have assumed the position that "no body likes me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat worms"
Seriously, what's your argument?
RonnieZ - I'll ask again, could you please state the reason(s) you oppose the health reform bill? I don't care to attack you--nevins seems to have that market cornered--I just want to understand your reasoning.
But Ronnie Z has already stated his oposition--he hates us.
The state of discourse in America today. Nice.
Ward Up must have jury duty today or something.
if you live in the 5th district, Quiqley wants to hear your take on the debate...
https://forms.house.gov/quigley/survey.shtml
"For this reason, I think it’s easier to “build up” to a smaller bill. There will clearly be a bipartisan consensus to increase Medicare spending on doctors (the so-called “doc fix”). I will guess that this path leads to $100B — $200B of spending over 10 years: more Medicare money for doctors, combined with expansions of Medicaid for the poor. To offset the deficit effect, they would cut Medicare Advantage and nick at other Medicare providers, and maybe do some of the Kerry tax increase proposal. This would be an “incremental” package that advocates would argue is a small step in the right direction. I would oppose such a package, but it might be able to get 60 votes, and could almost certainly get the 50 votes needed through reconciliation, and without any significant procedural hurdles. This path could be partisan or bipartisan, and it’s way too soon to predict which.
This is what Democrats do when all else has failed, to make sure the President has something to sign. It’s a failure path that they would unconvincingly argue is a first step toward a larger reform."
If y'all are still interested in arguing, this is the real view of the process. Keith Hennessey is a very bright guy albeit conservative, so he must be stoopid. go to his site for an in depth analysis here,
http://keithhennessey.com/2009/09/02/health-care-moves/
Why do you post things from conservatives, JA? Don't you know conservatives are stupid? They are. They are stupid and easily brainwashed. And they are hicks. And stupid. And they are all birthers, don't you know?
If there's anybody who participates in groupthink, its you liberals. Oh, Obama is so great. Let's bow down to him. No matter what he does, we will support him. We don't care if he uses Biblical passages to push his healthcare bill, even though we savage conservatives who do the same thing. He surrounds himself with big business (GE, Goldman Sachs) and nary a word from you hypocrites. He is not closing Guantanamo, he is continuing Bush's policies on ridiculous spending, he is leaving our troops in Iraq, etc. He can do anything and you people won't criticize him. Its quite pathetic.
Liberals surround themselves with like-minded people and cannot handle debate. This board is a perfect example of how liberals operate. Find someone who doesn't think like you and insult them! Yeah!
Its funny how you liberals make fun of birthers but most of you actually bought the notion that Bush orchestrated 9/11. How stupid are you people. Its funny to see your rantings on here, you are really a bunch of babies. Especially Jess Nevins, you sound like the most miserable person on Earth. I am having a lot of fun watching Obama's ratings fall and hearing you liberals blame it on the stupidity of the American people, rather than entertaining the possibility that Obama might be doing something wrong. No, that's not possible.
They are. They are stupid and easily brainwashed. And they are hicks. And stupid. And they are all birthers, don't you know?
Oh goodness, are we having a pity party? Shall I bring the WHINE?
Give me a Goldwater conservative, give me George Will, give me William Buckley (who, while a bit of a bastard, would have driven a stake into Glenn Beck and salted the earth just to ensure he did not rise again) to debate. Give me thoughtful, small government conservatives. These cultist religious nonsense types do you no favors.
If there's anybody who participates in groupthink, its you liberals.
"You engage in groupthink, allow me to prove it with this generalization!"
He can do anything and you people won't criticize him. Its quite pathetic.
You don't watch much MSNBC (LIBERALS!) or read anything the progressive caucus has put out do you? Obama's been taken to task by the left on Gay rights, the bailouts, the war (s) time and time again. Yes, I think he's been given a bit of a pass by some. Perhaps because he was handed a crashing economy, two failed wars, a legacy of torture and human rights abuses and a federal government so broken it could not get "hot water to babies" in the Super Dome.
The right threatening to kill themselves and keep their kids out of school lest Obama talk to them hasn't exactly been helping either.
Liberals surround themselves with like-minded people and cannot handle debate.
Actually, most people do this. I tend not to associate with people who, say, advocate against gay rights or think that health care should be something that only some people should access. But that's because those people tend to be creeps.
All kidding aside, I have libertarian friends, conservative family members, liberal friends, commie friends, anarchist friends. Sometimes we talk politics, most of the time we just enjoy each others company.
This board is a perfect example of how liberals operate. Find someone who doesn't think like you and insult them! Yeah!
Like you've been doing here and in other threads for days now? YEAH!
Its funny how you liberals make fun of birthers but most of you actually bought the notion that Bush orchestrated 9/11.
I know literally dozens of liberals and not a one, not a one, believes in that truther bullshit. Try again.
How stupid are you people. Its funny to see your rantings on here, you are really a bunch of babies.
Find someone who doesn't like you and insult them! Yeah! Oops.
Especially Jess Nevins, you sound like the most miserable person on Earth.
Because we strenuously disagree on health care and other issues and I've made some cutting remarks about your (lack) of leaders on the right? Oh touche, you wound me.
I am having a lot of fun watching Obama's ratings fall and hearing you liberals blame it on the stupidity of the American people,
I blame it on the right flailing about and accusing Obama of indoctrinating kids and trying to kill grandma. You shout nonsense long and loud enough, sadly, people believe it.
Mind you, George Bush's "ratings" were at about 25% when he slunk into the dark.
rather than entertaining the possibility that Obama might be doing something wrong. No, that's not possible.
I think he's wrong on GLBT rights, I think he's wrong on the wars, I think he's wrong on torture (Cheney and Gonzalez and Hu should be in jail, now) and timid on health care.
And you're wrong too, but I love you all the same.
I was at the rally, but wasn't allowed inside. I still got some really amazing footage of the wingnuts hanging around outside. You'd be amazed at what these guys were willing to say to me on camera. I embedded them on my blog.
http://www.yourcivicdoody.com
It's really amazing to see an argument that is so entirely dominated on one side by misinformation. Sometimes I feel like I'm on LSD when I'm talking to someone about euthanizing old people.